New Owner...off To A Bad Start

[SnatchyRhino]

Hi Everyone!

I've my first child on the way in a few weeks. I've done my research and have decided on an 06 diesel Rav4. I hope this is the best forum and I'm here to stay for a long while.

I found one, in great condition 80k. I was under a little pressure at the garage (due to it closing) and secured it with a £500 deposit. Due to be picked up on Saturday, I'm starting to worry as there was a a little white smoke from the engine block. Had I more time I would have investigated further. I suspect my deposit is lost if I don't follow through with the purchase.

Is the white smoke a concern? The engine oil was also like treacle, despite a service 3k ago. The car has full service history. Now I've had a few days away from the car, I'm regretting being too hasty.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello Chris - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

Topic moved to Rav4 club to generate more responses.

[SnatchyRhino]

Thanks Frosty. Not a single welcome until yours. Not great. Perhaps this isn't the friendliest forum.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hi Chris - on the contrary, we are a friendly and helpful forum. However responses, as with any forum, can depend on who is online and whether they have knowledge of your issue. Give it a bit more time .........

[SnatchyRhino]

Hope so!

Perhaps I shouldnt have started with a request for advise. I only intended to introduce myself and say hello :)

[Heidfirst]

start by reading http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/132178-charliefarlies-guide-to-the-toyota-2ad-diesel-engine-and-its-issues/.

The problem is that whilst probably under 5% of 1Ad & 2AD engines develop the issue you can't tell which ones until they are already showing signs.

What kind of warranty are the garage giving you? (iirc Toyota will now extend the warranty up until 10 years, for a fee of course).

When was it last serviced?

Is it a full dealer service history? Has it already had any work done for the above issue?

p.s. welcome to the forum :)

[Madasafish]

Welcome

You say "white smoke form the engine block".. Do you mean you opened the bonnet and saw white smoke? Or do you mean white smoke from the exhaust?

If from the engine block when you opened the bonnet:

Steam from a water leak

or

smoke from oil spilled on exhaust - either a leak or from oil change..

Does the smoke smell of oil?

Where on the engine block is the steam?

[SnatchyRhino]

Thanks guys, the Rav has 80k, it was last serviced 4k ago. As far as I can tell there has been no work on this issue. There was dealer service history every 10k from

New until 70k then a bit of a gap, then services elsewhere.

I noticed the White smoke when checking the oil , it was coming out of the engine oil check, after removing the dip stick. Also the exhaust, I'm not sure if this was just after startup only, I've read that it could be water leak , or worse a head gashet, I'll cjrvk the exhaust fumes on something cold and check for condensation , I didn't get a chance to smell the smoke / steam but will.

Are there any other checks to diagnose?

P.s. At 2006 it is just outside the Toyota guarantee. I'm receiving s 6 month platinum mobile service, looks to cover most things but likely just breakdowns.

[SnatchyRhino]

Just noticed you mentioning 10 years, will give them a call thanks,

[firemac]

Hi Chris & welcome.

I have to say that white smoke from the oil dipstick tube isn't somethingthat I've come across before. It mght be nothing or it could indicate something amiss. White smoke from the exhaust is likely just steam from the moisture in the exhaust evaporating after start-up. Oil in diesel engines tends to get mucky pretty quickly in most cases but you should use its condition to demand a full service before delivery (this might be difficult now if you've settled everything already).

If the garage is reputable then they should provide you with a warranty - ask to see a copy of it so that you can check what's covered. Even so, any vehicle has to be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality so even if you don't get a warranty, if something major goes bang in a reasonable time after purchase, you've got a good chance of recovering your losses although you may well have to fight for it through the courts.

However, if the car has a full Toyota service history, as you suggest, and it hasn't had numerous owners (unlikely if the SH is legit), you may well have a nice vehicle that will serve you well for years. I think that you need to sort out your feelings towards the dealer though and the best way to do that is to have a frank discussion with him along the lines of your approach on this thread. Simply tell him (ideally the boss or "dealer principle") that you feel that you were pressured and that you need to be convinced that the concerns that you have are not indicative of potentially fatal failures. Tell him that you've become aware of the Toyota 2AD diesel problem and that you feel that he was obliged, as a reputable dealer, to reassure you about this issue, I.e. with a good warranty.

If you don't feel comfortable after such a discussion then personally, bearing in mind that you felt pressured and that you now have had time to consider the matter calmly, I'd cancel the deal, demanding your dep[osit back in full. If they refuse threaten them with Trading Standards or that your husband/brother/dad/mum works for Which Magazine/is a consumer rights lawyer/works for Trading Standards and you'll be quite happy to make their life a pain until you get your way. Ideally do this when there are other customers around. Make it clear that you feel that that they have taken advantage of a pregnant woman.

When you've got your money back, take your time, do some research and buy from a garage that has been recommended or check out Honest John's website where he lists good garages all over the UK.

One final piece of advice: never feel pressured into buying any car. More than likely the one that you really want will still be there after you've slept on it. In any event there are thousands of cars out there to choose from; if you can't get the deal you want on one then another wil be waiting down the road in another dealership or on another website.

Good luck.

[SnatchyRhino]

That , Sir was a fantastic response. Thanks very much. Apologies for the typos, earlier. I wrote that on my mobile on my way to work.

I am absolutely hoping that the smoke was just moisture evaporating after startup, I'll be holding something cold next to it to check for condensation. I'll try the same from the dip stick. I commented at the time about the oil quality, but the dealer shrugged it off. I'll not be able to demand a service. The car has had 3 previous owners, which I though average for this age.

I've tried a frank conversation with the owner (who I dealt with originally). I explained my concerns about the white smoke, I felt pressured (by time), and enquired about an 07 Rav that he is also currently selling. This is a more expensive car, but alarm bells were then ringing when he stated that customers were unable to exchange... making me thing he was in a hurry to sell this one.

My intensions are as follows

1) Visit the deal this Saturday

2) Request another look around the vehicle where I will investigate if the steam / smoke is just on start up and if it is indeed water or smoke. (I'm not sure what I will do with these results, but hoping it is a non issue)

3) Compare against the 07 Rav he is also selling (Engine noise in particular).

I've just purchased a return train ticket as insurance. If I am unsatisfied with the purchase, I will be demanding refund (in front of a busy Saturday trading) and also mention the things you advise. He seamed reasonable when dealing with him originally, but a few things are making me concerned, namely his stubbornness regarding 'after-sales'. Time will tell.

Really what I wanted from this forum was a way to determine exactly what I;m dealing with here as best I can. Engine nboise comparison (all Diesels sound nosey to a long term petrol buyer). The white steam / smoke condensation test is the best I've read so far.. but there what do I do with the results? If the exhaust turns out to be smoke.. and won't go after startup.. then that leaves me with an answer. If there is indeed steam form the dip stick pipe, then is that a good indication to walk also?

thank again

[firemac]

When you first approach the car, it's worthwhile having a look underneath to see if there are any obvious oil or water leaks -
admittedly probably not possible in your current condition.

Diesels can be noisy, moreso when you are standing beside an open bonnet. Although most are clattery on start-up, they should quieten down as they warm up and the tolerances between the moving parts in the engine are taken up. RAV 4 diesels aren't known to be particularly noisy. However, if you are not used to them, it's hard to explain how to determine what a "wrong" noise is. All you can do is listen for rumbling noises in the lower part of the engine which could indicate bearing problems. Also listen for any obvious metallic rattles. Generally, once the engine is at operating temperature, it shouldn't produce any of these noises. If you get a "hard" metallic rattle when accelerating hard once the car is fully warmed up, that could point to injector problems, so that is worth listening out for. Also, have a look in the rear-view mirror the first time you accelerate it really hard - you could get black smoke from the exhaust which may indicate soot build-up in the exhaust/DPF that can happen in a diesel that is used for short runs and doesn't get up to operating temperature. However, if it only does this once and doesn't repeat it on subsequent accelerations, that may just be due to the car having been sat on the dealer's lot for a while.

If the smoke from the exhaust is steam, it will disappear when the engine is up to normal temp. Smoke from the dipstick is not normal in my opinion; it might indicate that the sump is being presurised, either through the sump having been overfilled with oil or blow-by at the piston rings. The latter is not a known RAV problem however. Check the oil level on the dipstick before you start it up to make sure it is not overfilled.

It might be worth suggesting to the dealer that, as a compromise, you get an AA inspection carried out and that he shares the cost with you. If he isn't keen then say that you'll pay for it yourself. If he's legit and the car is straight, he shouldn't have a problem with that. If he does, then it leaves you with an opportunity to question his honesty - loudly so that other customers can hear. If the inspection turns up any issues it will be very difficult for the dealer to get out of putting them right and he'd have a hell of a joib trying to hold you to the deal. Look out for any signs on the lot or on particular cars saying something like, "any inspection welcomed".

In your position, I'd use your delicate position to force the guy's hand and, from what you've described about him, to get your deposit back and walk.

Good luck. let us know how you get on.

[SnatchyRhino]

Certainly will do... thanks for this post. I must correct you and apologise for my wording. I am not the one carrying the child, but the one who put it there. Apologies for not making that clear hahaha

I did go underneath, admittedly it was to check for rust. The ground was wet, hopefully it will be dry on Saturday. I've just bought a new drive way. I'm not about to have it further damaged with a leaking car if I'm paying £6k.

"Calattery on startup" - Thanks for this, it was very clattery. I'll be comparing it with another and also after another run out. What exactly is "blow-by at the piston rings". Is this serious? Is it curable? I will of course check the oil level again.

Thanks again for all this advice.

[battleaxe]

Chris I live in tyne & wear, pm me with your address or phone number and you can listen to mine running if you would like.

Geordie

[firemac]

Certainly will do... thanks for this post. I must correct you and apologise for my wording. I am not the one carrying the child, but the one who put it there. Apologies for not making that clear hahaha

I did go underneath, admittedly it was to check for rust. The ground was wet, hopefully it will be dry on Saturday. I've just bought a new drive way. I'm not about to have it further damaged with a leaking car if I'm paying £6k.

"Calattery on startup" - Thanks for this, it was very clattery. I'll be comparing it with another and also after another run out. What exactly is "blow-by at the piston rings". Is this serious? Is it curable? I will of course check the oil level again.

Thanks again for all this advice.

Pity about the misunderstanding though - you could have made alot of money out of being a pregnant male!

Rust isn't an issue on RAVs. If you find corrosion to any extent, it could indicate accident damage in the past.

The piston rings ensure a tight fit between the pistons & the cylinder bore walls so that you get maximum compression in the combustion chamber. This is essential for good economy and effeiciency. Curing it involves stripping the engine down to replace the rings and/or pistons and/or re-bore the cylinders. Clearly best avoided.

However, as I said, this isn't a known RAV fault but do watch out for the 2AD problem which is detailed in the pinned section above (see Charlie Farlie's Guide to 2AD engine problem) and was subject to a voluntary warranty extension from Toyota for the affected cars. But if you have done some research, you'll know about this.

[sich1]

do what i did when i bought my rav. take what is called a carp mat with you.

its a padded,plastic normally, mat thats used to protect fish. stick it on the ground and lay on that.

bloke was giving me funny looks as i almost vanished under the car...lol

just buy a cheap one

[graunch]

An alternative to the carp mat stu is if you ever find yourself in a charity shop have a look out for roll up exercise mats,

I have bought a couple of them now both reebok and they are ideal for throwing down when you need to get underneath the car (they are certainly not going to be used for their design purpose by me).

Colin

[SnatchyRhino]

Thanks guys, but I have no issue getting under the vehicle, although these are very good tips. I usually make sure I'm wearing an old jacket. The real issue is the white smoke / steam from the dipstick discussed above.