Plug In Prius- Charging

[kevin h]

Help, seriously thinking about buying a plug in to replace my regular 59 plated Prius.

Currently getting around 68 MPG on average, not bad at all.

Now, for my daily commute, the plug in will be ideal, 16 miles is my return journey and I'm working on work to allow recharging at work.

However, the concern is when I make additional journeys to relatives.

Would I be able to plug the Prius into there domestic supply using the 3 pin plug?

I'm also having to think about my current electricity supply to my external garage, will it cope?

Not worried about longer European journeys, last year I averaged 74 mpg to Germany and back and would expect similar economy from the plug in, if not slightly better.

Any advice, greatly appreciated.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

My PiP is only ever charged from a domestic 13amp 3pin socket, so you've no worries there. The draw is about 2kw.

I'm averaging about 85MPG with 20-25% of my journeys only being in EV, and the rest in HV - I do a 50 mile round trip to work daily with only a charge at home currently (to change in time, looking at getting a charging point added at work soon).

Regarding MPG check http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius/2013/MEP/303281

They're my fill ups - City use % is the % of that tank done on EV, so will hopefully show just how good it should be on fuel for you if you're doing a lot more in EV only!

My summer run in July from Salford to Lowestoft when I'd just bought the car, it averaged an indicated 84MPH with HV only use :)

[kithmo]

I keep hearing of the PIP doing more mpg than the standard Prius in HV only mode, is this true ?

If so why ?

[MEP's Yaris GS]

I keep hearing of the PIP doing more mpg than the standard Prius in HV only mode, is this true ?

If so why ?

Yep, its true. Reason being because its got a Li-Ion Battery rather than the normal Prius having a NiMH Battery. The Li-Ion Battery accepts charge from regen braking a lot better than a NiMH battery does. Only other Hybrid in the UK range with a Li-Ion battery is the Prius+ I believe.

[johalareewi]

Would I be able to plug the Prius into there domestic supply using the 3 pin plug?

Yes.

I'm also having to think about my current electricity supply to my external garage, will it cope?

Should do.

Depends how it has been wired up to the main supply.

Older DIY-jobs maybe limited to 10amps (2kW) or less.

[barrycoll]

"Yep, its true. Reason being because its got a Li-Ion battery rather than the normal Prius having a NiMH Battery. The Li-Ion battery accepts charge from regen braking a lot better than a NiMH Battery does. Only other Hybrid in the UK range with a Li-Ion Battery is the Prius+ I believe.

That is very interesting Jono, and something that hasn't come to light recently (for me, anyway)....NiMH is old tech, but reliable, and lithium seems to be evolving constantly, especially in the e-bike world, where batteries are the weak link.

So Mr T could substitiute lithium for Ni in the base Prius/Auris etc, and claim more mpg for the 2015 model year?

[MEP's Yaris GS]

So Mr T could substitiute lithium for Ni in the base Prius/Auris etc, and claim more mpg for the 2015 model year?

Potentially, but I believe there may be a price difference in producing the different Battery also, so assume that will have to be taken into account.

[kithmo]

I keep hearing of the PIP doing more mpg than the standard Prius in HV only mode, is this true ?

If so why ?

Yep, its true. Reason being because its got a Li-Ion Battery rather than the normal Prius having a NiMH Battery. The Li-Ion Battery accepts charge from regen braking a lot better than a NiMH battery does. Only other Hybrid in the UK range with a Li-Ion battery is the Prius+ I believe.

True, my Prius+ has a lithium battery, but I can't say I've noticed any difference in the charge, discharge behaviour of the HV compared to the Gen 3 I had.

[Sagitar]

When driving the PiP as a "normal" hybrid i.e. with no plug-in top-up, I certainly seem to get better mileage than from my previous T-Spirit. However, I have no basis for suggesting that this is because of the different Battery technology. I would guess that the improved mileage results from more efficient regeneration, but that might just come from the fact that the Battery has greater capacity.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

I would guess that the improved mileage results from more efficient regeneration,

Caused by the better Battery tech. You can have the best most efficient regen system in the world, but if the Battery won't take it.....

[barrycoll]

So the PIP is being marketed as a basic Prius with a plug in option, and not really advertised as an upgraded model in an mpg sense.

No mention is ever made of the potentially improved regen, or the larger capacity Battery.

So one wonders what a PIP, when driven as per a normal Prius, but 'sans' plugging in, would do mpg wise.??

Pity you can't have it with a opening sun roof, nor space for a space saver, as I would be interested.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

So the PIP is being marketed as a basic Prius with a plug in option, and not really advertised as an upgraded model in an mpg sense.

Its never been marketed as a basic Prius, and has always been stand alone, with spec similar to the T-spirit.

MPG is advertised as 134.5MPG combined (obviously very circumstantial) but with any plug in, they don't give a none plug in MPG equivalent (which is a pain, and where the Prius beat all other plug in vehicles hands down from what I've seen posted online with real world use.

I've many times mentioned what mpg it will do without charging though and backed it up with my fuelly data - HERE http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius/2013/MEP/303281

My best recorded none plug in MPG in the summer without winter tyres is 71.77 (brim to brim manual calculation) over 632 miles of mixed driving, most of which was sat at 60MPH on motorways etc. Not sure what a regular Prius would have done, but from what I've seen on here, about late 50's, early 60's at best?

[PeteB]

So the PIP is being marketed as a basic Prius with a plug in option...Pity you can't have it with a opening sun roof, nor space for a space saver, as I would be interested.

it's a strange mix of spec from T3, T4 and some T-Spirit features (LED headlights, SatNav for example), and heated seats that aren't standard on any other Prius version.

Had there been a spare wheel option, judging by some plausible comments on this and other forums (fora?!), by my reckoning would have possibly doubled the number sold in the UK.

I would have definitely have bought a PIP if so.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Info regarding charging capabilities here http://auto.howstuffworks.com/lithium-ion-batteries-improve-hybrids1.htm

Still trying to find the bit I saw about the above and the charging capabilities resulting in an improved MPG of the PiP over the standard Prius.

Out of interest, whats your MPG on a decent long distance run Pete?

[PeteB]

On summer tyres, 250 mile round trip, taking things gently and doing 60-70 on speedo where allowed, 68-74 on the display.

On a 500 or so mile tankful, the display is 3½-4 mpg over, so I suspect on half that distance the optimism is nearer 2.

[PeteB]

For that matter, if I drive through several villages on the back roads doing mostly 20-30 mph for half an hour I'll see anything from 70 to 90 mpg on the display!

[Sagitar]

I would guess that the improved mileage results from more efficient regeneration,

Caused by the better Battery tech. You can have the best most efficient regen system in the world, but if the Battery won't take it.....

I think you have missed the point that I was making, Consider an analogy. If you have a one gallon galvanised tank, the rate at which you can transfer liquid using that tank is affected by its size and (marginally) by the material from which it is made. If you double the size of the tank and change the material from which it is made to a smoother material that offers less resistance when filling, then the transfer rate will increase marginally because of the change in material, but mainly because of the change in size of the tank..

I am suggesting to you that the improvement in regeneration efficiency in the PiP is much more likely to result from the fact that its Battery capacity is greater than that of the standard Prius. The choice of Lithium is mainly about other things such as the weight of the battery and the charging rate/time when the car is plugged in.

[PeteB]

I am suggesting to you that the improvement in regeneration efficiency in the PiP is much more likely to result from the fact that its Battery capacity is greater than that of the standard Prius.

you may be right, but it's not always straightforward to make assumptions regarding the Toyota Hybrids.

The way the PiP's Battery is managed is quite involved.

As much as I understand (which I don't suppose for a moment is anywhere near everything!), is that:

1. it is one physical Battery, but
2. it is managed in two portions:
   1. EV battery (the big bit) - the displayed battery gauges appear proportional {not in bars)
   2. 'normal' hybrid battery (small bit - roughly equates to standard Hybrid battery capacity) - gauges switch to 8 bars like the regular Hybrids once the EV bit has been used up
3. Once down to standard Hybrid levels, it behaves like a normal Hybrid, except it starts with 8 full bars and for a while continues to 'use up' the 'spare' charge
4. this gives the Pip an extra 'edge' over standard Hybrids, in that each time you charge it you are also effectively topping up a standard Hybrid battery.

I'd love to take a PiP to Scotland and drive down some of the 6+ mile mountain roads I visited in my Gen 1 Prius a few years ago and see just how much recharges that gives it!

[barrycoll]

Yes, that would be intersting PeteB, as my T Spirit actually shows a totally full (more than 8 bars) Battery indicator, when descending the Pyrenees from France into Spain, which is probably more than 20+ mile gradient.....and then it acts very strangely for a few miles, as if it had enough energy to do a few cartwheels and pirouettes, with a "just say the word" from me.

So a PIP might be fully/partially re-charged??

[kithmo]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the regen doesn't recharge the PIP's EV Battery, if it did it would make more sense to me.

Only two things really put me off the PIP:

1. There's no pre-heater whilst charging, so in effect my 3 mile commute to work would be nearly all on ICE to warm the engine, so I would get no benefit from plugging in, especially in winter.

2. No spare wheel. I will never buy a car without a spare (I might possibly consider one that has run-flat tyres though) and If, as rumour has it, all new cars may have gunge instead of a tyre then it looks like I'll be sticking with what I've got now.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the regen doesn't recharge the PIP's EV battery, if it did it would make more sense to me.

Only two things really put me off the PIP:

1. There's no pre-heater whilst charging, so in effect my 3 mile commute to work would be nearly all on ICE to warm the engine, so I would get no benefit from plugging in, especially in winter.

2. No spare wheel. I will never buy a car without a spare (I might possibly consider one that has run-flat tyres though) and If, as rumour has it, all new cars may have gunge instead of a tyre then it looks like I'll be sticking with what I've got now.

In 3 miles you're not likely to be getting any useable heat from even a normal car in experience. You've heated seats which do a good enough job of keeping you warm, or can just leave your coat on. The only time its caused me an issue this winter is the 2 occasions I've had a frozen screen. Other than that no heater with ICE isn't the end of the world in my opinion.

Regen will fully recharge the Battery if long enough. The PiP has just a single traction Battery, not 2, its just digitally split into HV and EV on the dash, but physically its one Battery.

[Sagitar]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the regen doesn't recharge the PIP's EV battery, if it did it would make more sense to me.

I'm not sure where that idea might have come from. I must do some more reading.

This morning, driving in EV I topped a hill while showing 8.2 miles remaining. I drove down the other side with cruise control set to 40 mph (the speed limit). By the time I reached the bottom of the hill I was showing 8.4 miles remaining.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it was recharging - it could just mean a change in the way that the remaining miles are estimated, but I can't see any good reason why it wouldn't be. Certainly, the pictorial display showed power flowing from the generator to the Battery.

[RobMagpie]

It definitely does recharge. Once in the Lake District, without plugging in, descending a long hill the display went back to EV and I was able to drive in EV for a short while.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

As above, I can confirm SoC increases on long down hill bits according to my scan gauge.

[Sagitar]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the regen doesn't recharge the PIP's EV battery, if it did it would make more sense to me.

I'm not sure where that idea might have come from. I must do some more reading.

A quick look through the owners manual brought me to page 56 where there are three paragraphs on Regenerative braking and EV that make it clear that regeneration does recharge the traction Battery and restore the EV mode.