Vanishing Coolent Problem?!

[the goat]

Hello all!, as a new member I would just like to start by saying hello, and thanks to anyone who takes the time to read what is my first post here!. I got myself a black Toyota Celica VVTI 140, 2004 about 2 months ago, it ias about 67,000 miles on it and all service stanps, mots etc, and all in all I am very happy with it. The only issue that I have had is that since I brought it I have noticed that the coolent keeps running down more or less as soon as I top it up!. I ve read about some Celica's having overheating issues and my heater gauge has hit the top rung a few times since I ve been using it. I work in london and find that now and then when I am stuck in strffic the needle does go to the top a few times, but it hasnt really been as issue as usally I find that turning up the air conditioning tends to take the tempreture down a few notches. Also when the car is running free (ie not stuck in traffic) it seems to keep itself cooler and the tempreture gauge doesnt go up as high as when its idling around. But the Coolent is always down at the bottom of the resevouir everytime I check it, which I do find a little alarming! lol!. Today I topped it up to max, then drove the car around a bit to warm it up them when I looked at the coolent again it had gone roight down. I've checked for leaks etc but havent seen any. I have a theory that it could be air in the system but I'm a driver rather than a mechanic so would be greatful for any other ideas of the problem and how to sort it?. Also As the car is generally not overheating is it really a problem? usally my 20 mile commute from london takes me about 1 and a half hours to 2 hours, and the temp auge is usually asound the last but one notch before hitting overheating, is this about normal or should my temp aguse be lower?. As I said before thanks for any advise and hope I've explained my issue claerly enough, unfortunately I have the dreaded manflu at the moment and feel like I have the hangover to end all hangovers!!!.

[ToyotaAuris]

It may be your head gasket, easy to test. Twist the oil top up lid and pull it off. If under the lid you see white/yellow mayonnaise looking liquid/gunge then it likely your head gaskets gone. If you only drive in city, low miles then you may still have it there and it may not be the head. If you do drive on the motorway and its still there then your heads on its way out, water is mixing with oil. Second way to test is to fill up the coolant with normal tap water and start/drive car for about 20 minutes and then check the water. If there is a light brown tint to it which looks like oil then your heads gone. Last way to test is when on a hot day, cars temp is warm. If there is white smoke comming out of exhaust in them circumstances then head gasket. The best way to test gasket is to get a compression test done, tool its self costs about £15 and gives you a clear answer and gives you place to start.

Also I would recommend you get this liquid from Halfords which is used to stop coolant leaks, you may not be able to see when it leaks maybe it leaks when your driving, its about £10. Used on 3 cars, all successful.

[the goat]

Thanks for the info toyotaauris!... I will look into the head gasket thing. If it is that is it something that needs fixing asap or is it ok to leave it as it is for a while?. How big a job is it to change the head gasket?. My engine oil when I check it is very clean, not sure if that is any clue as to what is going on. If it doesnt seem to be the head gasket then what else could it be?

I will definately get some of that stuff from Halfords too and see if that makes any difference. Cheers!

[alan333]

The temp guage should be around the middle at all times - if it's nearing the red there's a problem.

The engine generates heat, and uses water (coolant) to absorb that heat. When the water gets too hot it goes to the radiator to cool. While driving the ram effect of the air cools the radiator, and when sitting in traffic the radiator cooling fan cools it instead.

When the water heats up it expands and the extra goes to the header tank. If it gets really hot it'll boil and it could be throwing it out of the header tank, so when it cools again the level's not so high. So the first thing I'd recommend is to check whether the radiator is full (not just the header tank).

There's a few things your problem could be, although I'm leaning towards head gasket or head troubles too. It could be a faulty thermostat stopping the water being sent to the radiator to cool. Or a faulty water pump not pumping strongly enough, or not working at all, stopping the water getting to the radiator. Or a faulty or clogged radiator not allowing the water to flow through it or cool it. Or a faulty radiator fan not cooling it.

Turning the heater control to max allows the water to flow through the heater which cools it by heating the cabin with the heat generated, hence the temp guage goes down.

Either way your car has a problem, and by leaving it you're risking overheating and possible head gasket or head damage (or risking it getting worse). I'd get a decent mechanic to check it out.

Edit... When the head or head gasket is faulty there are three things that can mix. Water, oil and combustion gases. Sometimes you can get the white stuff (water) in the oil reservoir/cap, sometimes you get oily water, and sometimes the gas escapes into the water thus boiling it and throwing it out the header tank.

[the goat]

thanks Alan!... I have looked at the oil and it looks clear rather than gooey. Other than this issue the car is running good and sounds fine. Obviously I will look into this straightaway though rather than leaving it. I guess I could have been more thourgh when looking at it before I brought it but it ticked all my boxes regarding age, colour, milage, having service history and being in good shape and a good drive etc... will have to put this down to teething trouble! lol...

How much is a new head gasket liable to cost me? am I better off going to a toyota garage or just finding a cheaper independant garage?...

[Mike169]

Hi Peter.

May i politly suggest you handle this a little differently as currently you are believing it is the head gasket and everything everybody has said is true, but i believe you are thinking along the lines of 'take it to a garage and get the head gasket changed'. I feel you would be better off taking the car to a decent garage, it does not have to be a Toyota one as your car is out of warranty many years ago, and just say to the garage that the car is loosing coolant and let them diagnose the fault because as mentioned the reason for your coolant loss could be many things and for you to go to the garage and tell them to change the head gasket and you get the car back and you still have the same problems then you have waisted your money.

Let the garage diagnose the fault, and if they say it is the head gasket then let them change it....if you haven't done one before yes they are a bit tricky and you can do a lot of damage. If after they say that was the fault and thy do the work and the fault still exists then the onus is on the garage to mend it correctly rather than you telling them what needs repairing and what the fault is.

You can get a quote from the garage before they start work for a specific job, like the head gasket change, so this way you will have an idea of how much it will cost but you must be prepared that the bill could increase if they advise that it could be one or two jobs therefore a variation in price is realistic.

Find yourself a decent garage, get them to test the head gasket, they will have equipment just to test this and get a price. Once you know the dianosed fault you can always phone your local Toyota dealer and ask them how much money to do the same job, it will i am sure be significantly higher.

Let us all know how you get on.

Mike.

[the goat]

Yes Mike that is good advise, rather than going in wallet swinging and asking for a new head gasket I will be a bit more cautious with what I say to start with to the mechanics. Unfortunately I've always found that going to garages is a bit like Russian roulette, you never quite know what youre going to get from them. I have read some horror stories online about people with this kind of coolent issue who had the headgasket changed then the water pump then the thermostat and still had the same problem!!!........ I suppose theres no chance that it might just be air in the system as ive been secretly hoping??.... either way I will definately keep you posted on this!... thanks!....

[Mike169]

Hi Peter.

If you are hoping it's just an airlock all i can suggest you can do, and this works by the way, undo the radiator top hose clip where it attaches to the radiator and remove the expansion container filler cap.

Get a watering can or garden hose and hold the car top hose as high as it will go and keep filling the hose until it keeps overflowing out of the plastic expansion tank, the part where you put the coolant in.

After say 5 mintes of keep putting water down the top hose and it coming out of the rad cap area push the top hose back on the radiator quckly so as to not loose too much coolanr thus inducing air locks, tighten up the jubilee clip or what ever type of clip you have, top up the expansion tank and simply try it.

Start the engine, get it to running temp. and recheck the level in the tank.

Give it a day or so and see if it has fixed the problem or this will tell you if your problem is more serious.

Let us all know how you get on.

Mike.

[fastbob72]

I'd adf that with the vvti engine overheating it could be a real disaster, I severely cooked my 7A-FE,repaired a cooling gasket with a scabby bit of lino n filled her up when she cooled right down and it had no adverse effect at all.... those motors are bulletproof but the ZZs aren't quite as capable of that kind of abuse it seems, my 1ZZ sits fractionally below half way on the guage but that can actually be as hot as 93-94 degrees in slow traffic which is a little too.high,about 10 degrees above the temperature that the fans are set to. come. in according to. my Haynes manual :(

[Scarlett Arrow]

Hi, Peter & welcome to T.O.C.

I also have a 2004 registered Celica.

Gen 7 Radiators last around 10 years. They weep in the bottom corner, and the escaping coolant is difficult to spot without removing the engine under-tray and examining from under the car. Nine times out of ten, the Rad is found to be the culprit for overheating on these cars.

New Rads are only around £40 from eBay, but do use genuine Toyota LongLife red or pink coolant, which will cost as much as the Rad. The trickiest part of replacing the Rad is bleeding the system of air, Toyota recommend raising the height of the expansion tank, but this can take up to 30 minutes of revving and topping up the expansion tank. Please get this problem looked at ASAP, before you do some expensive damage.

HGF on a Gen 7 is exceptionally rare, and I would strongly advise against using any stop-leak liquid such as Radweld. Problems with the Heater Matrix behind the Dash are very labour intensive.

[armoredfist2002]

Headgasket replacement I wouldn't even consider as I don't think I have ever heard of one go in over the 6 years I have been a celica owner, even the supercharged lot haven't had this issue.

Waterpump leaking is easy to diagnose providing you still have the original pink coolant in, as there will be pink crystals on the underside of the bonnet from the coolant being flicked up by the auxilary belt and also around the pump.

Gen 7 Radiators last around 10 years. They weep in the bottom corner, and the escaping coolant is difficult to spot without removing the engine under-tray and examining from under the car. Nine times out of ten, the Rad is found to be the culprit for overheating on these cars.

New Rads are only around £40 from eBay, but do use genuine Toyota LongLife red or pink coolant, which will cost as much as the Rad. The trickiest part of replacing the Rad is bleeding the system of air, Toyota recommend raising the height of the expansion tank, but this can take up to 30 minutes of revving and topping up the expansion tank. Please get this problem looked at ASAP, before you do some expensive damage.

HGF on a Gen 7 is exceptionally rare, and I would strongly advise against using any stop-leak liquid such as Radweld. Problems with the Heater Matrix behind the Dash are very labour intensive.

This would be my first choice of things to look at.

So many gen 7's have had coolant loss issues in the last few years from another forum both myself and scarlett visit, and they are all caused by the radiator leaking. This is the cheapest option to try first, as scarlett says avoid stop leak liquids they tend to block up passageways they shouldn't.

[fastbob72]

I agree on the radiator, have a vvti Avensis and.am. losing coolant slowly, ended up.removing drivers wheel. aelrch liner to. get a proper look, there sigms of coolant loss at bottom hose but haven't had chance to get fully at it and determine if the leaks from.the outlet or. the hose itself but it's nowhere near as dramatic as yours, in fact it'll go. a. week before needing topped up if only i could remember to resist my heavy right foot lol

[the goat]

Thanks for all the advise! I 've been reading up a bit more on the net and it does seem to be a bit of an issue with these Celica's. There's a few stories of people changing gaskets, pumps and themostats and still having disappearing coolent!. I'm leaning towards the rad thing myself now, that or air. Yesterday had a real look at everything again, no gunk under the oil cap, the oil itself is new looking (the car had a full service last summer) no signs of white smoke from the exhaust. Don't know if it makes a difference but when the needle has gone to hot it has only stayed there momentarily then gone down again. I usually drive for about 2 hours to get home in evenings and the needle rests usually one or 2 notches from the dreaded hot point. Not sure if this is about normal after a 2 hour drive or not?!.

Yesterday took the cap off the expansion tank and filled it up as the engine was running, when it stopped going down gave it a little run and looked again at level and coolent was still there!. Drove it to work today and needle only reached about halfway after about 1 hours journey (not much standing traffic though!). So I'm thinking maybe I have cured the air lock if that's what it was. I'm no mechanic at all, but I've got rid of air locks in previous cars by doing something similar to this. I guess I could still have a rad leak as well as the air thing, I've read that sometimes if you have a leak the level can go down to a level where air can get into the system, thereby doubling your problems. Anyway will look at my levels tonight after work and will see whats going on!.

Oh and I decided against using radseal as was thinking it might compromise other area of the system. Thanks again for all the adivse, I will keep you posted!.

[fastbob72]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if it aas an airlock of sorts, the reading you get on the guage is basically a glimpse, a snapshot of one tiny part of the cooling system and not a mean value or average across the full engine but at the sensor itself but being placed where the coolant leaves the engine it's a good gauge of the systems over all health but it isn't accurate proof under all. circumstances.

your gauge could be showing mildly hotter than normal,well.within the limits yet at the hottest point of the engine around the exhaust valve coolant passages thr metal could be so hot the coolant instantly turns to steam on contact and effectively creating a pressure boundary at the metals surface which will prevent. any liquid getting near the most vital parts it needs to causing the area around the exhaust side of the combustion chamber, valves and throats to get hotter and hotter which will cause serious damage over time,, because the steam creates a barrier for the coolant it basically will flow around that area not. soaking up any real heat so it isn't overheated as it leaves the head making everything appear normal. Any fluid loss from a leak lowers the pressure in the system lowering the boiling point of the coolant which will make the system even less effective.

If that kind of heat in your head which will just get hotter and hotter the longer the engine is running can vapourise coolant and appear like. coolant loss, particularly if there are no visible signs of coolant seeping out..... with mine I have tell tale little puddles on the engine tray right at the bottom hose,/radiator inlet so I know why i'm losing it.

I would suggest if it continues to. disappear you. should renew the rad and hoses, bleed it properly with quality coolant.

Disappearing coolant can be a sign of a head gasket or cracked head but just as. easily superheated exhaust ports and valves vaporising your coolant, if it continues the longer it goes on the more likely you will crack the head or gasket,,, personally i think it would explain your symptoms it doesn't sound like a blown head to me....... i hope it is cured now but what i've described is often happening when the cooling system isn't so effective as it should be but because the liquid is prevented from even contacting the metal you don't get the needle going off the scale,, often. a. needle that climbs. to.hot then drops. back is a classic sign it's happening because it gets hotter m hotter as the needle suggest until the vaporisation occurs preventing the coolant touching the heated parts and flowing past them, as this occurs the liquid no longer soaks. up. that heat and your needle will drop to a more normal reading.

[fastbob72]

Btw, i hope. that post made. sense, i may. have laboured a bit trying to explain it but it is a real unseen consequence of a compromised cooling system that many people are totally unaware of, the climbing needle that worries people is considered a. good. thing when it returns to normal but isn't understood to be a bad sign, i don't remember you mentioning the your temp gauge did this till the last post, that's my fault if you did but as soon as i read it that's what came to mind, if you haven't sorted it and this continues i'd take the situation more seriously!!

[ToyotaAuris]

What part of London are you in? West, South, East or North?

[the goat]

Thanks Bob! yes what you said does make sense, although some of the technical stuff does tend to fly over my head a bit unfortunately. Anyway the latest is that I've had a break throught, but not really the kind I was looking for! :(. Going back to my car after work I checked the level of the coolent again anhd yip it was gone again (down to the drain part!) so there goes my wind theory!. topped it up again and drove home, (the needle enever went over halfway on way home) but when I got back I kept the car running and looked underneath and yep I found a bunch of water coming down!!. What threw me in the past (and Im ashamed to say this as it illustrates what a crap mechanic I am) is that I didnt take into consideration the cover which is underneath the car!! so Ive been looking for leaks and basically did spot it cauise of the underneath cover which must be collecting a lot of the water. The lead seems to be on the passenger side, where there are two holes in the cover, I touched these and a fiar amount of the red stuff came down!. So I guess this makes it likely to be the radiator taht is gone. You cant see it at all looking down at the engine. I do find these cars have too many coveres on them, if it wasnt for that cover on the bottom I would certainly have spotted the leak much sooner. Bit gutted as Ive only had the car a month or so but I kind of fell in love with it and probably didnt check it out as thoroughly as I could have. I'm just hoping the engine hasnt been damaged by what I must admit has been some alarming incompetance on my part!. I'm going to try and take it in tomorrow and tell the garage I think it is the radiator and have seen the water leaking out etc... or maybe will just say about the coolent going down and the leak which Ive seen, as it could be a hose or soemthing I suppose. Unfortunately I'm not handy enough to be able to fit a new rad myself so will have to just bite the bullett. How much about should it cost me to have a new radiator fitted by your average garage? just so I have some kind of guide line to go by when I take it in and get a quote for having it fixed!??. Thanks again all!

[the goat]

Toyotauris, I'm in south london, quite near to the Twickenham rugby stadium. I'm now ulling over taking my car either to a local grage round the corner from me or the Curry's Toyota garage thats further away. Should I go to a Toyota garage or will that judt be more money for not necsassarily a better service?.I'd rather get a good job done on. I also know that sometimes name garages are not any better than the cheap and cheerful garages. Russian roulete as I said earlier!.

Any suggestions of a good garage in my area Twickenham/Richmond ish... would be very appreciated.

[Scarlett Arrow]

Order Rad from eBay

Order seven litres of LongLife

Ring around for labour quotes

Choose garage (but NOT Toyota!)

[RUToyota]

Order Rad from eBay

Order seven litres of LongLife

Ring around for labour quotes

Choose garage (but NOT Toyota!)

+1.. ...but make sure they follow precisely the instructions that you'll find on a sticker under your bonnet.!!!

Getting the airlocks out of these things is the trick.!...you should only be looking at a couple of hours labour.

It's absolutely odds on that the rad is your problem.!

Neil

[ToyotaAuris]

OK dont go to Currie motors they gonna rip you off, like they tried with me. My mechanic is not far away from you, its in Hayes. Their name is MAKS MOT on springfield road. Very good and trustable people and charge very reasonable pricing. They always are there to help and go above the expected!!! Its not far from the rugby stadium, only 10-15 mins.

[the goat]

well theres been a few more twists and turns!. I took the car to the garage near me and bit later at work was phoned by them and told that it is the radiator, and that cost in all will be £150.00... £90 for rad and £60 labour, which I was very pleased with under the circumstances, as Ive been bracing myself to having to Shell out about £500ish squid for this. Anyway went to collect car after work with money and was told by garage mamager that car is not ready yet as they seem to have problem with the fans, apparently the fans are going on and not going off for ages, which is something that I never experienced with the car. So they are hanging onto the car to look into this. The managaer said the system might need to be bleed again or I could need a sensor for the fans. I told him that I have never had a problem with the fans before!. So now I am wondering whether these guys are basically adding on another problem in order to get some more money from me (maybe I sounded too happy when he quoted £150 on phone!!) or else is it possible they have created some new problem for me by fitting the new rad!!!. I have actiually seeen the old rad and it was indeed a wreck!. face to face these guys seem to be honest enough but unfortunately I am old enough and jaded enough to know that someone can seem as nice as pie yet still try and rip you off in order to fill his pocket a bit more. So frustraed and rather worried. Any idea what could be causeing the fans to go on and not want to go off and why this problem could suddenly appear after the fitting of a new radiator???

[Scarlett Arrow]

told that it is the radiator, and that cost in all will be £150.00... £90 for rad and £60 labour

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-CELICA-1-8-MANUAL-1999-TO-2006-RADIATOR-BRAND-NEW-2-YEAR-WARRANTY-/281070187314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&fits=Model%3ACelica&hash=item417116b332

[RUToyota]

told that it is the radiator, and that cost in all will be £150.00... £90 for rad and £60 labour

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-CELICA-1-8-MANUAL-1999-TO-2006-RADIATOR-BRAND-NEW-2-YEAR-WARRANTY-/281070187314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&fits=Model%3ACelica&hash=item417116b332

+1...these rads have been used with no problems by quite a few Celica owners ...£90 is way too much.

My guess is the system simply needs the air locks getting out of it...PROPERLY.!...

Neil

[the goat]

So got the car back tonight, and they have fitted new radiator, thermostat and sensors, for total price of £190.00 which all things considered is not bad really. They told me that they had ran the car for 3 hours to make sure it wasnt leaking and to come back if I have any more issues with it. I drove it around for a bit and seemed quite ghot but to be expected I guess if theyve been running it so long. The temp needle still two notches down from hot level. Dont know if im being paranoid but was a bit concerned as the fans didnt seem to be on at all, and uaully after I have been driving it in past the fans would go on quite a bit and uaually for a while after I have turned oit off even. Most worrying though is I looked at the coolent level and though not easy to see in dark it looks like its right at the bottom again!!!!!!!. Is this normal when the engine is hot or have I still got an issue here. obviously I will check level again in mornin when car is cold but if it is low again looks like I will have to take it back to this garage. Could be they didnt top it up enough or else there is still an issue. The radiator certainly needed replacing and I saw the leak myself so if that is fixed where has the coolent gone now!!!.... love this car but its starting to make me go grey! :(