Should Bleeding Air Really Be So Difficult :(

[fastbob72]

Well as mentioned in a previous post I went about fixing the coolant leak today. It all went like I expected and hoped it would although it is almost certainly the rad leaking not the hose so i cleaned it all up fitted it all back together and started the refilling process.Oh cos the thermostat is below the alternatori left it n didn't flush block.

I've refilled the cooling system 100s times but I read up what haynes had to say and checked out any coolant related post i found here as extra info never hurts, I did my GS with the 7A motor and it was incredibly easy so i wasn't expecting trouble.

Well after endless attempts at topping up and manipulating out those air pockets she is still filling with air from somewhere it seems though all hoses have been checked, double check and checked again to be sure.

What's disturbing me most is with the engine running and cap off the water level rises and is steadily running out the radiator cap as if the running engine is pushing the coolant out. That only usually means one thing and I really don't want to contemplate

that yet as there was no gasket leakage before i yesterday.And I was losing fluid to a leak as the pool of coolant under the car testified.

So I was hoping that someone has a few tips or ideas because I'm steadily fearing the worst but can't understand how. the gasket could blow from refilling the coolant.

Basically it's this noticeable lifting of the coolant level up from just below the filler cap to overflowing that bothers me and it's inability to clear the air in the system.

Going to add a few pics of the rad and also of where i found she's weeping oil which explains the minor loss of oil i've experienced and was putting down to being burnt,not matter how confident you are in what you believe the barrage of bad press concerning the vvti and it's oil problems has you doubting youself even when you know you're as sure as you can possibly be it' s not being burnt....... txtd the gf last night '....... found an oil leak aswell am delighted' :)

[Konrad C]

Hi FastBob,

It is interesting how hard leaks are hard to trace, then you find not one but two.

I had a coolant leak which at first had no obvious drips. In my case there was a hairline crack in the plastic part of the radiator.

Got mine from Euro car parts for just over £50.

Got home and removed the old radiator and fans, after draining the system

Then after swapping the fans re-installed the replacement fans

An easy job if competent.

[fastbob72]

Hi Konrad thanks for the reply. I knew or thought I knew where the leak was coming from and I waa right mostly. I could see the small coolant stain appear within minutes of parking up always the front driver side maybe 6 to 8 inches deeper than below the bottom hose but the undertray caught it and fluid dripped from where further in towards the inner wing. It's impossibe to see the connection from the top and requires reemoval of the drivers side wheelarch liner and preferably wheel to reveal the bottom hose fit the radiator. Even then it's not easy to see properly from the wheelarch but did confirm it was that union that leaked.

The hose clip was rusty, the hose looked old and didn't seem to fit squarely like it should so in my mind it was 50% the hose, 40% the way the hose was fitted n the clip and 10% the radiator itself. Or at least that was how likely i felt each causr to be.

More than ever before I wish I had a pit or those hydraulic ramps like in kwikfit because the best access to these cars seems to be from below, mine is up on an axle stand and it makes it a nightmare to access even with all the trays and liners removed but the crystalline coolant around the lower finned part of the rad isn't visible at all until the hose is removed completely, the hose may still be a problem but I expect it's the rad that's leaking. I'm sure I've read they are prone to failure at that point.

The hose is old but ins't perished or split so i decided to reuse it after a thorough clean up, it's done the trick as there is no leak there with the engine running.

I just cannot get it to bleed out all the air and after topping it up at the rad, manipulating the hoses to purge the trapped air the running it with cap off it is still overflowing at the cap, when the levels just above the bottom of the filler with the engine running it rises till it overflows constantly doen the back of the rad n fans. I've worked air from all hoses including to the heaters which brings out air bubbles, the level drops an inch the slowly rises until overflowing again.

I've gone through this entire procedure many many times since last nightband clearly there's a problem, something is pushing the coolant level higher till it runs out.

The water pump perhaps though I've never had a car do this before... admittedly the vast majority had sealed rads and pressuried expansion resevoirs with a bleed valve. I've had maybe a handful of Japanese cars with radiator caps but 10 or 20 times the amount of Fords and Vauxhall which don't but I've done a Primera, Sunny, 200SX and my previous Avensis and they never made the coolant overflow during bleeding.

One thing that is fairly unique is the position of the thermostat and that it opens up to feed into the bottom of the rad, that's unusual but I can't see it being a cause except squeezing the bottom hose even when cold produces a rattling sound from around the thermostat.

The obvious dread is it's exhaust gases from a cylinder head leak that is the cause, fully gunning the engine a few times produces no noticeable increase in the coolant at the open rad bit maybe the volume of fluid between a leak and the atmosphere dampens down any effect, water has some compressibility to soak it up maybe more than enough besides the system isn't under pressure so would there be any effect.

When allowed to cool fully the mains hoses particularly the top and heater hoses are half full of air, the bottom hose feels locked aswell until the fluid mixes properly. There is clearly more air in the system despite being fully topped up many times. There are bo visible leaks anywhere except wherebit flows out the radiator. There was no cooling problems, back flow into the expansion tank or the faintest hint of any cylinder head cracks or gasket leaks in fact I'd had the plugs out the day before and they were text book ideal condition for a healthy engine.

A mild coolant leak from the botton hose and very slight oil usage were the only issues with a sweet and crisp motor, the oil it turns out is seeping very slowly from behind the timing chain cover which I had read is very often where the 1ZZs and 2ZZs missing oil is going to but obviously it's assumed to be being burnt according to a post I read by a Toyota mechanic in which he claims he's seen this often. I had hoped to find the signs of a leak there but didn't expect to be so easily condirmed, i'm exceptionally happy about it as if I halfed my oil usage over the same distance suggesting half my loss was used, half leaked it would mean my engine is burning 0.5 litres per 3.5-4,000 miles which is right back up with what I'd expect of all engines normally.

The oil situation, wonderful but that other vital lidmfe fluid the coolant has temporarily stumped me. If I get finished work at a reasonable.I'm going to remove thermostat and fully flush the engine and. the radiator before slowly and deliberately topping up with coolant see if that will solve the situation.

I blew my compression guage a while back, forgot to vent it after testing one cylinder then tried the next which blew the guage...... had it for 10years or more so have to borrow one and check for a blown head gasket. Between that and a vaccum guage if the head or gaskets blown it'll show.

Am hoping beyond hope it's not and nor can I see how running it up to temp to ourge the air coul have blown it as I had my scan tool connected so I could see when she was hot enough for the thermostat to open plus not allow her to overheat with the cap off, the hottest I saw was 96 degrees which any engine should handle, it's actually just getting to an ideal temperature around 90-95 degress although manufacturers tend to err on running cooler these days with the higher conpression ratios and running that much nearer to knocking to run yhem cleaner.

Right now I'm mostly p****d off that I haven't determined exactly what the problem is, it's years since I spent 4 hours, when combining last night and today after work, on an engine and not known what the problem is.... have my suspicions but ran out of daylight to test one of them.

Shall reconvene tomorrow tea time

[fastbob72]

Hi FastBob,

It is interesting how hard leaks are hard to trace, then you find not one but two.

I had a coolant leak which at first had no obvious drips. In my case there was a hairline crack in the plastic part of the radiator.

P1040931.jpgWP_20141022_001.jpg

Got mine from Euro car parts for just over £50. P1040934.jpg

Got home and removed the old radiator and fans, after draining the system P1040933.jpgP1040936.jpgP1040943.jpg

Then after swapping the fans re-installed the replacement fans P1040945.jpg

An easy job if competent.

I've heard some criticism of that rad but most of the parts I:ve bought from there have done there job nicely and for well less than the OE equivalent so when the time comes I strongly suspect that's where I'll get mine.

They look like the twin fans i ripped off a 205 diesel van years ago and grafted to my 2.8 Capri after ditching the viscous coupling engine driven cooling fan.

You're right any semi competent DIYer should be able to fit a new rad n swap fans yet there's a huge spectrum between the poor, average and really good DIYer not just in the end result but also the approach and planning, there are always the odd thing that won't go as it should though rusted and corroded fixings thankfully aren't as regular as they were. With the Fords late 70s n 80s models mostly I would expect half the nuts to round off, studs to snap and castings to crack. These days they truly are frustrating due to thrmeir scarcity now lol

[Konrad C]

When I filled cooling system which is pre mixed, I squeezed the hoses, then ran the engine with the radiator cap off. The cap went on when the water began to rise, put the cap on.

The expansion bottle was slightly over filled, so the system then self bled. I topped the expansion bottle up a few days later.

The level has been the same since the repair. That was over 4 months ago.

The chain cam cover sealant may have deteriorated. It is a special sealant from Toyota.

[fastbob72]

I never flushed the engine and radiator after work like I was going to just because I was shattered after work,may well leave it till friday cos thats when i get paid and we have a Europarts depot next door to our depot so it couldn't be less easy to pick one up :)

Yeah that was the same procedure I followed several times just like every car I've ever refilled the cooling system of in the past but the system wouldn't self bleed. You always know when the last of the problem air vents because the heaters start to flow heated air.

Admittedly I was getting pretty hacked off over saturday night and sunday starting on it after work so that and probably as much because I'm just not used to getting nowhere with a car these days made it seem worse than it is.

Am going to flush out the block/head and radiator tomorrow when I get in.Then take a little more time and patience filling the engine slowly so air pockets aren't easily trapped in waterways, passages and the heater hoses/matrix etc. I suspect it was my impatience while refilling it initially promoted air pockets yet all the same it's made up now for all the straight forward fixes i"ve been able to carry out with no hassles at all

As for the oil leak it's clearly from an area that's not under any real pressure from exhaust gases, vaccum or gears rotating. It's like the coolant leak it has it's origin deep behind the engine components maybe seeping from a source behind the chain cover and inner wing but. it's a nightmare to precisely place it when theres allsorts covering it up, an engine mounting restricting access from above.

As I said I'm happy it's just an oil leak. I'll have to dig out the post in question and repost if here because I believe there are enough vvti owners here who may be losing oil and assume it's being burnt because of all the bad press over this engines oil useage Am oretty sure the leak was from or close to the chain tensioner.

Yeah thess flimsy cover plates are prone to rattle loose or easily overtightened on refitting.There will no doubt be a specific Toyota sealant for it but usually a generic sealant will work as well as the OE as it doesn't have to cope with pressure negative or positive, specific chemicals just oil, no extreme temperature or bolt forces so a good aftermarket sealant will do if the OE Toyota sealant is more expensive

[Mike169]

Hi.

I have just had a quick read through this thead.................would it be worth doing a head gasket sniff test just to comfirm either way if you have the head gasket putting air into the system.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/221147093962?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108

Just an idea.

Regards Mike.

[fastbob72]

Hi.

I have just had a quick read through this thead.................would it be worth doing a head gasket sniff test just to comfirm either way if you have the head gasket putting air into the system.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/221147093962?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108

Just an idea.

Regards Mike.

Alright Mike you're right it would be worth doing but I think I was mostly tired and frustrated plus plain p****d off so looking on the gloomy side. I'd pretty much have to had blown the gasket or the head by heating it to 90 odd degrees or operating temperature.

I was maybe looking for a reason to explain why I was couldnt clear the air when in truth it was most likely being tired n hacked off mostly.

Am getting a new radiator friday, thermostat too and do the job refreshed and put it back together properly after properly flushing.

If after doing it and there's still issues then a sniff test would be a logical next step although I favour vaccum or compression testing to determine a blown head, it's just what I am used to using to diagnose head failure.

I do think I was over reacting thru being worn out n wound up, thanks for the advice though Mike but I hope it doesn't come to that lol

[fastbob72]

Well picked up new radiator and thermostat from Europarts today. £76 in all wasn't that bad I thought.

So yesterday when I got in I took out rad n contemplated removing altenator to get at thermostat housing. Chose to go in via the throttle body and inlet manifold way so off they all came lol.

There was an area of shinier oil in the plenum and back of the inlet valves all had a film of oil over them but crucially it was even across all 8.

The throttle body is the least appealing with both a thin build of oil on the engine side and what looks like alloy oxidisation the filter side of the butterfly.

Anyway 2 days off sonas much cleaning and degreasing all the areas of the motor that will beyond reach when the whole lot is assembled :)

[fastbob72]

Finally got it put back together on saturday on my day off, no leaks, nor trapped air, job done although it took a fair amount of bleeding to get all the air out in the end :)