Cross Climate Tyres For A T-spirit

[rrockettman]

Hi All.

I've just bought a Yaris Hybrid with 195/50/16 tyres and I'd like to fit Cross climate tyres before the winter.

Michelin don't make them in that size, the nearest is 195/55/16.

The speedo will under read by about 1 mph at 30 and 2 mph at 70, so not a big difference.

Would these be okay?

Thanks.

Russ.

[CPN]

The error between those two sizes is greater than you suggest. Take a look here...

http://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=195&aspect=50&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=48&width2=195&aspect2=55&diameter2=16&wheelwidth2=6&offset2=48#content

...and you will see that at 30 the under read will be 2.17mph and at 60 it will be 4.34mph and so 70 will be even further out... You'll be just about wiping out the EU required overread of your speedo right up the range...

(this is all assuming you'll be fitting them on 16" rims of course!)

[CPN]

My Yaris Hybrid came with 16" wheels and I went down to 15" for my winter alloys. Here's how my calculations went to get as near as I could...

http://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=195&aspect=50&diameter=16&wheelwidth=6.0&offset=51&width2=185&aspect2=60&diameter2=15&wheelwidth2=6.0&offset2=44#content

[FROSTYBALLS]

It is illegal for a car's speedometer to under-read - your proposed change will change the legality of your car, and affect your insurance.

Irrespective of what tyre size you fit, you will also need to inform your insurance company of any change in wheel size.

[rrockettman]

Hi All.

I've just bought a Yaris Hybrid with 195/50/15 tyres and I'd like to fit Cross climate tyres before the winter.

Michelin don't make them in that size, the nearest is 195/55/16.

The speedo will under read by about 1 mph at 30 and 2 mph at 70, so not a big difference.

Would these be okay?

Thanks.

Russ.

My mistake, they're both 16" rims.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The UK standard for speedometers is different to the EU standard:

For the UK, as per the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed. However it differs slightly from them in specifying that for all actual speeds between 25 mph and 70 mph (or the vehicles' maximum speed if it is lower than this), the indicated speed must not exceed 110% of the actual speed, plus 6.25 mph. For example, if the vehicle is actually travelling at 50 mph, the speedometer must not show more than 61.25 mph or less than 50 mph.

[MikeSh]

According to tyrereviews:

"The new Michelin CrossClimate will be available in May in a range of 23 sizes to fit wheel sizes from 15 to 17 inches ..... More sizes coming in 2016."

Unless you are in the habit of driving on the limits of grip I'd suggest waiting till next year when you'll likely be able to get the right size and avoid all the complications of having a non-standard fitment.

[CPN]

The UK standard for speedometers is different to the EU standard:

For the UK, as per the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed.

That being the operative phrase (and lower limit), if you are careful and keep the error to less than 0.5%, you will nearly always still be reading over the actual speed; given the inbuilt speedo over read. (satisfying the overall overread requirement)

Also, you should (nearly always) be able to settle on a wheel/tyre size combo that is specified as a standard OEM fitment option size by the manufacturer and therefore will not "break" the insurer's' requirements in most cases. In my Yaris's case for example, both the 195/50R16 (came fitted) and the 185/60R15 (optional) are specified as standard fitments and so I used the latter for my winters which gives a -0.27% difference in speedo read from the standard.

When I rang the insurance company to check, their first question was "is that size of wheel/tyre specified in your owner's handbook?" and when I answered yes, they replied with "that's fine."

[rrockettman]

Good answers.

I didn't think of the insurance angle, good point.

I live on top of a steep hill, so need winter rubber in the snow with a 2wd car.

I've previously run Subaru 4wd's but changed to a Civic diesel last year and managed with winter tyres in the snow.

I'd rather not go for the spare set of wheels and tyres cluttering the garage again and thought the cross climate the perfect answer.

I think I'll hope for a snow free winter and see if Michelin produce a 195/50/16 in 2016.

Thanks for all the replies.

Russ.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The UK standard for speedometers is different to the EU standard:

For the UK, as per the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed.

That being the operative phrase (and lower limit), if you are careful and keep the error to less than 0.5%, you will nearly always still be reading over the actual speed; given the inbuilt speedo over read. (satisfying the overall overread requirement)

Also, you should (nearly always) be able to settle on a wheel/tyre size combo that is specified as a standard OEM fitment option size by the manufacturer and therefore will not "break" the insurer's' requirements in most cases. In my Yaris's case for example, both the 195/50R16 (came fitted) and the 185/60R15 (optional) are specified as standard fitments and so I used the latter for my winters which gives a -0.27% difference in speedo read from the standard.

The standard isn't talking about speed limits, it is the actual speed of the vehicle.

It depends very much on the insurance company's view as to the deviation from standard spec. Manufacturer options are still counted as modifications by some insurers, and some consider any deviation from standard spec (ie T-Spirit) as a modification. An example is post 27 of the following thread, where, despite 15 inch wheels being fitted to the lower spec of the Auris, Toyota Insurance would not agree to covering fitting 15 inch wheels to the higher spec car, as they were not available either as standard or optional fitment on that spec - http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/145281-toyota-motor-insurance/page-3.

Always check with your insurer as to what their view is before you make the change, as opinions vary from insurer to insurer and there is no standard policy adopted.

[CPN]

The standard isn't talking about speed limits, (neither was I...) it is the actual speed of the vehicle. (exactly the direction I was coming from...)

It depends very much on the insurance company's view as to the deviation from standard spec. Manufacturer options are still counted as modifications by some insurers, and some consider any deviation from standard spec (ie T-Spirit) as a modification.

Well in my view they shouldn't be... If all these options are available to any customer then "de facto" they become a "standard". The cynic in me would suggest that the insurers are just using it as an excuse to leverage more money from the customer...

An example is post 27 of the following thread, where, despite 15 inch wheels being fitted to the lower spec of the Auris, Toyota Insurance would not agree to covering fitting 15 inch wheels to the higher spec car, as they were not available either as standard or optional fitment on that spec - http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/145281-toyota-motor-insurance/page-3.

That's a bit shocking actually that Toyota's own franchised insurance takes that view...

Always check with your insurer as to what their view is before you make the change, as opinions vary from insurer to insurer and there is no standard policy adopted.

Sadly, there's only one way around that and that is to vote with your feet and money! Making sure you forcefully say why to them before you do whilst insisting they give you a rational explanation that makes sense for their stance...

[FROSTYBALLS]

That's a bit shocking actually that Toyota's own franchised insurance takes that view...

Always check with your insurer as to what their view is before you make the change, as opinions vary from insurer to insurer and there is no standard policy adopted.

Sadly, there's only one way around that and that is to vote with your feet and money! Making sure you forcefully say why to them before you do whilst insisting they give you a rational explanation that makes sense for their stance...

The one proviso with the above is that, if one is part way into an annual insurance policy one may incur a cancellation fee in order vote with one's feet and money, and change insurer. The rational explanation would undoubtedly be that the underwriters won't accept the change.

One does need to be careful where underwriters are concerned.

When I worked for DWP, staff using their personal car for official business had to ensure their insurer provided Crown Exemption - in the case of an accident whilst on official business, the insurer undertook to not involve the Crown in any subsequent claim. A colleague who was partway through her annual insurance policy, checked with her insurer by telephone that they would provide Crown Exemption. During the phone call she had Crown Exemption refused, and the underwriters cancelled her policy with immediate effect. She was left with having to obtain new insurance that afternoon, so she could actually drive home insured.

[Heidfirst]

It depends very much on the insurance company's view as to the deviation from standard spec. Manufacturer options are still counted as modifications by some insurers, and some consider any deviation from standard spec (ie T-Spirit) as a modification. my view they shouldn't be... If all these options are available to any customer then "de facto" they become a "standard". The cynic in me would suggest that the insurers are just using it as an excuse to leverage more money from the customer...

An example is post 27 of the following thread, where, despite 15 inch wheels being fitted to the lower spec of the Auris, Toyota Insurance would not agree to covering fitting 15 inch wheels to the higher spec car, as they were not available either as standard or optional fitment on that spec - http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/145281-toyota-motor-insurance/page-3.

That's a bit shocking actually that Toyota's own franchised insurance takes that view...

It won't have been type approved by Toyota. Same as running my T-Spirit on 17" Avensis wheels despite them being standard fit on mechanically identical lower trim levels. As it's not type approved it's an extra risk - it's then up to the individual companies whether to offer cover or not & at an additional premium or not.

[CPN]

How on earth can it be "not type approved" if the very same item is tabulated as an available option in an owner's manual of a given car?! If it is not type approved, what is it doing being shown in the manual in the first place?! Sorry but I would stand toe to toe with them and flat out reject that reasoning... That's just a cop-out or "excuse" if you like...

[CPN]

When I worked for DWP, staff using their personal car for official business had to ensure their insurer provided Crown Exemption - in the case of an accident whilst on official business, the insurer undertook to not involve the Crown in any subsequent claim. A colleague who was partway through her annual insurance policy, checked with her insurer by telephone that they would provide Crown Exemption. During the phone call she had Crown Exemption refused, and the underwriters cancelled her policy with immediate effect. She was left with having to obtain new insurance that afternoon, so she could actually drive home insured.

Point taken about the cancellation fee... (another "artificial" barrier designed to manipulate the customer! ;) )

What you describe there is appalling behaviour by the underwriters and highlights their collective inflexibility! (I knew about the Crown Exemption as a similar thing applied whilst in the Forces to us if we were actually using our own vehicles on Army business...)

[Heidfirst]

How on earth can it be "not type approved" if the very same item is tabulated as an available option in an owner's manual of a given car?! If it is not type approved, what is it doing being shown in the manual in the first place?! Sorry but I would stand toe to toe with them and flat out reject that reasoning... That's just a cop-out or "excuse" if you like...

because it isn't tabulated as an available option on that engine/trim, the individual engine/trim levels get their own individual Type Approvals.

Another example: my car is a facelift T27 yet optional wheels that are type approved for the original T27 T Spirit (18" Pitlane) aren't on mine but 18" Pitlane 2 are - they use same PCD, offset etc. as far as I know there is no significant difference in weight of the wheel or hub design.

& getting back to the original post - Nokian also recently introduced a "Weatherproof" tyre - this is essentially a winter tyre that is designed to be better in summer than conventional winters whereas iirc the Pirelli is a summer that is designed to be better in winter than conventional summers.

Same problem though - currently not available in the required width/profile/radius.

[CPN]

How on earth can it be "not type approved" if the very same item is tabulated as an available option in an owner's manual of a given car?! If it is not type approved, what is it doing being shown in the manual in the first place?! Sorry but I would stand toe to toe with them and flat out reject that reasoning... That's just a cop-out or "excuse" if you like...

because it isn't tabulated as an available option on that engine/trim, the individual engine/trim levels get their own individual Type Approvals.

Another example: my car is a facelift T27 yet optional wheels that are type approved for the original T27 T Spirit (18" Pitlane) aren't on mine but 18" Pitlane 2 are - they use same PCD, offset etc. as far as I know there is no significant difference in weight of the wheel or hub design.

& getting back to the original post - Nokian also recently introduced a "Weatherproof" tyre - this is essentially a winter tyre that is designed to be better in summer than conventional winters whereas iirc the Pirelli is a summer that is designed to be better in winter than conventional summers.

Same problem though - currently not available in the required width/profile/radius.

Sounds to me as if "Type Approval" is just a euphemism for "Let's hide behind our Lawyers"! ;) I still don't agree with the logic behind it or its rationale...

That's a pity! That kind of tyre I'd be interested in... :)

[Heidfirst]

I suspect that it came out of the German Auto industry (biggest in the EU) where e.g. 3rd party wheel manufacturers have to provide their own approvals to use their wheels on cars for the insurance industry - no approval, no insurance (same as discussed on a thread re. window wind deflectors).

[CPN]

Which thread is that? (there are many on the same subject...)

[rrockettman]

If they're that picky, I'm amazed that they don't insist on OE standard when replacing tyres and not allow cheap or second hand tyres to be fitted.

[MikeSh]

I'd rather not go for the spare set of wheels and tyres cluttering the garage again and thought the cross climate the perfect answer.

Several tyre manufacturers (including Michelin, though no doubt they will now be changing their advice) say that if you can't manage separate wheels/tyres for winter and summer then (in the UK) it is better to use winter tyres all year. I have one car thus shod (with Nokian WR A3) and it's been fine, (though I think they may be costing me a couple of 10th's on my 1/4 mile times on the drag strip ).

[yossarian247]

I'd rather not go for the spare set of wheels and tyres cluttering the garage again and thought the cross climate the perfect answer.

Several tyre manufacturers (including Michelin, though no doubt they will now be changing their advice) say that if you can't manage separate wheels/tyres for winter and summer then (in the UK) it is better to use winter tyres all year. I have one car thus shod (with Nokian WR A3) and it's been fine, (though I think they may be costing me a couple of 10th's on my 1/4 mile times on the drag strip ).

Yes I was about to say the same. The UK climate is reckoned to be barely hot enough to justify using summer tyres, and if you must use one type of tyre all year round and can't get 'all-seasons' in the correct size then winter tyres are less of a compromise than summer tyres.

[rrockettman]

I had Nokian winter tyres on the Civic for the winter and they still seemed okay when the weather warmed before I swapped back.

Worth a thought if I can't get Michelin, but the sales pitch on the Cross climate is a hard one to ignore!

I've looked at other brands of all season tyres but no-one seems to make them in 195/50/16.