Advice - Coolant Loss

[Aqualung666]

I have the unfortunate burden of owning a 2007 Rav with the 2.2 Engine..it's got about 60,000 on the clock and had few issues with it until last week when I lifted the bonnet to check levels etc and noticed the coolant was almost on low...it was about 18 months snce I had it serviced and it only gets very short journeys through the week and occasional longer trips at weekends.

There are no warning lights or noticeable loss of power...it seems to be doing about 34 MPG. I haven't noticed any staining where I park to indicate a leak in a hose or similar and I did an oil change today which didn't show any milkiness, in fact it was a lot darker than I expected...so, could this be the start of the dreaded head gasket problem or something less worrying like a leak somewhere?

I'm worried as I have a trip to Devon at the weekend and the thought of engine failure on the M5 is, well, something I'd rather not experience.

[Heidfirst]

any white/pink spotting around the coolant expansion tank?

[Aqualung666]

No, couldn't see any...so if it isn't showing in the oil or around the expansion tank where the hell is it going to!? What's the chance of Toyota changing the engine, it's had Toyota services up until the last few years when I took it to local garage who stamped it, but as I only do about 6000 miles a year it hasn't required more...I've changed brakes and discs and tyres so it has been maintained, but as it's a year past the 7 year extended warranty I'm worried I could be left with a car I can't drive and can't sell.

[FROSTYBALLS]

The 'warranty' on these engines is a goodwill measure by Toyota, and as far as I'm aware they pretty well stick to the 7 years/111,846 miles (whichever occurs first) limit.

[Aqualung666]

That doesn't sound promising...what's the chances of me getting to Devon and then two weeks holiday and back to West Yorks without any major problems...I can keep topping up the coolant but is it likely to just die on me?

[Heidfirst]

I would suggest that if there are no obvious signs that you would be OK as long as you keep checking & topping up if necessary. Don't know if it's the same on the RAV but it's definitely not unknown for water pumps on Avensis to leak.

[Aqualung666]

To add to my woes, when I came out of work today I made a point of looking under the front of the car and lo and behold there was a small wet patch just behind where the radiator is situated...this may be where the coolant has been leaking all along and I wouldn't have noticed it as where I park at home is rough ground and at work I normally dont look.

I'm not usre that this means it is definatly the head gasket causing problems or that it may just be a coolant leak from underneath the car, perhaps caused by me driving over the rough stones at home or just a failure in a joint etc.

Either way I can't check under properly and think I will hire a car for the Devon trip as I don;t want the constant worry of an engine failure. What do you think....leak from pipe or pump, or head gasket problem?

I really appreciate your thoughts as they help focus my raging anger!

[James..]

I feel your pain. My RAV is also of your vintage and similar miles. Its had two warranty repairs for gasket failure. Second one last year it had a new engine - as it was head gasket. But only just, I think if I had been a bit later it would have fallen out of the generous warranty period. Still, I can't complain if Toyota were prepared to fix it. It was off road for a month over Xmas and the garage were very much 'only if we see that it is the generic failure will Toyota pay for it, otherwise you'll get the bill'.

New engine fitted, so you can imagine my delight this year when 7000 miles on and ... coolant overflow. My local garage confirmed that indeed the new engine was (worse) than the old one and the head gasket had indeed gone again. So I don't know what 'fix' has been applied to these 'new' engines, as I'm not driving like a nutter in this car. Toyota don't sell the diesel RAV4 in the US and Japan, and now I understand why. I am hoping that my garage will manage to get something out of Toyota for this, and I will no doubt open a thread to discuss just how they respond. As I think people do need to know that if they buy a D4D engine of whatever vintage, you can expect some time off road!!

In your case though it sounds like you have a radiator problem as if you're not getting coolant expelled out of the top of the engine it could just be a pipe leak. I wouldn't panic if I were you, just carry a couple of pre mixed coolant bottles in the boot, and some Radweld. If you get desperate you can chuck in the Radweld (or K-seal or whatever), but it doesn't sound like you should be sweating it with a little leak like that, its not pouring out by the gallon and if you're prepared, you'll be fine! Just arrange for some leisurely pub stops on your way down, let the engine cool down and top up, and you'll be on your way.

My better half did a 100 mile motorway trip with engine #1 and the only symptom of low coolant she noticed was that the heater did not work. Given the current UK summer you can probably drive around without coolant and you'll be fine, (Its not like you can't keep an eye on the temperature gage). The Toyota garage have advised me with the blown head gasket that it is 'fine to drive' and indeed some of the local taxi drivers round here with Toyota D4D engines just top up their headgasket blown engines in the morning, and drive around all day like that. I daresay its not exactly how the engine was supposed to work but it seems to be designed to leak like a sieve... :-)

So, happy travels and don't panic!

[Aqualung666]

Thanks for that James...it's given me a bit of positiivty, but we shouldn't be paying good money to Toyota and other garages to repair the ineffective and not fit for purpose products that hey happily sell us...namely engines, water pumps etc...Like the rest of you, I opted for Toyota because the brand had qualities such as reliability, quality and good workmanship, I'm afraid from reading forums on their cars, there are a lot of people no too happy with Toyota and will give their money to other manufacturers.

The 7 year extended warranty is useless to someone, like me, who doesnt do many miles each year, any problems relating to the head gasket, would have been noticed long before the warranty expired. Anyway I'm hoping its as James says, just a leak, but with so many other casualties, I've still a nagging doubt!

[Heidfirst]

"Like the rest of you, I opted for Toyota because the brand had qualities such as reliability, quality and good workmanship, I'm afraid from reading forums on their cars, there are a lot of people no too happy with Toyota and will give their money to other manufacturers."

in which case for many they will be leaping from the pan into the fire ...

People are far more likely to come onto a forum & complain when they have a problem than they are to come on & praise when everything is going OK.

Yes, some Toyotas have problems (if you make enough of anything you always will) but they do at least pay lip service to their customer service - most other volume manufacturers also have issues but are far worse at cs.

Toyota won't sell the diesel RAV in the US (& I suspect Japan) because the consumer market for diesels is very small there.

[alan333]

The water under the car could be from the air con

[Aqualung666]

I actually don't think the wet patch was from my car as I checked overnight and there wasn't any so it may have been already there. Which still begs the question as to where all my coolant is going. I've had a look at the oil and it doesn't appear to be mixing in with it and the little valve thing which comes out of the expansion tank doesn't look furred up. There are water marks on the engine cover but I'm fairly sure this is from a cat which keeps climbing up and sleeping in there as I can see all the hair! I did have a rat getting in there at one point as well!

I'm totally confused by all this...still no warning lights or noticeable loss of power and my heater is working fine. Help!

[firemac]

"Like the rest of you, I opted for Toyota because the brand had qualities such as reliability, quality and good workmanship, I'm afraid from reading forums on their cars, there are a lot of people no too happy with Toyota and will give their money to other manufacturers."

in which case for many they will be leaping from the pan into the fire ...

People are far more likely to come onto a forum & complain when they have a problem than they are to come on & praise when everything is going OK.

Yes, some Toyotas have problems (if you make enough of anything you always will) but they do at least pay lip service to their customer service - most other volume manufacturers also have issues but are far worse at cs.

Toyota won't sell the diesel RAV in the US (& I suspect Japan) because the consumer market for diesels is very small there.

Agree completely with this reply. People in the US & Japan (as well as most of the Far East) simply don't use diesel for anything other than heavy eqpt and road haulage. Almost 100% of passenger vehicles are petrol powered.

I can't think of any other manufacturer who owned up and covered a problem like the 2Ad engine issue. You can point your finger at any manufacturer & highlight product failures that have occurred but none will have done what Toyota has.

Another thing, and I mean no offence, some folk simply buy the wrong cars. People who "don't do many miles each year" really shouldn't buy a modern diesel engine since these powerplants are simply not capable of dealing with the carbon build-up that results from running at temperatures below their minimum design threshold. Current diesel engines are being asked to achieve levels of emissions that are bordering on the impossible and are doing so by pushing output in order to overcome the power drain casued by bolting on more and more sophisticated clean-up systems which then cause their own problems. Very simply, that was the problem with the 2Ad engine.

[Aqualung666]

I agree firemac, I bought the Rav when i was doing longer journeys and only kept it because it is useful for transporting dogs and luggage around and has the 4x4 option which I need to park outside my house. Having said that then Toyota and other manufacturers should be making a point of advising that they are not ideal cars for the school run and short journeys if it is going to lead to carbon build up problems.

[firemac]

I agree firemac, I bought the Rav when i was doing longer journeys and only kept it because it is useful for transporting dogs and luggage around and has the 4x4 option which I need to park outside my house. Having said that then Toyota and other manufacturers should be making a point of advising that they are not ideal cars for the school run and short journeys if it is going to lead to carbon build up problems.

Common sense suggestion but dealers won't jeopardise a sale and they'll let the possible consequences of their omission be dealt with by the service dept later!

If you have no choice but to use the car for short runs then an occasional "Italian tune-up" would be useful, i.e. a run down the local M-way or dual carriageway at high speed and taking the opportunity to rev it out in the gears where possible. About 30-50 miles once a month should do it.

[James..]

I agree firemac, I bought the Rav when i was doing longer journeys and only kept it because it is useful for transporting dogs and luggage around and has the 4x4 option which I need to park outside my house. Having said that then Toyota and other manufacturers should be making a point of advising that they are not ideal cars for the school run and short journeys if it is going to lead to carbon build up problems.

Common sense suggestion but dealers won't jeopardise a sale and they'll let the possible consequences of their omission be dealt with by the service dept later!

If you have no choice but to use the car for short runs then an occasional "Italian tune-up" would be useful, i.e. a run down the local M-way or dual carriageway at high speed and taking the opportunity to rev it out in the gears where possible. About 30-50 miles once a month should do it.

You guys are beginners when it comes to car problems as I'm a long standing Alfa Romeo nut. They are always going wrong in some entertaining manner, yet I still drive one. In twenty years of driving Alfas only once have I had a roadside breakdown and my RAV4 has spent more time off the road at the garage being taken apart for coolant leaks than any of them. Bizarrely I bought Toyota because I thought that they were supposed to be reliable. I hadn't realised that you need to budget £1500+ a year for new gaskets :P . If you buy an Alfa you expect it will be expensive to run, so you make an allowance for that. I guess I didn't expect the same of Toyota (- and a much bigger allowance).

It is true that diesel cars are hobbled by their emissions controls, but they don't ALL blow up if they do short journeys. Mine haven't anyway! The average commute to work is I hear of the order of 6-10 miles. So there are an awful lot of RAVs doing short journeys out there, even if the average poster on here seems to be consuming diesel faster than a burning Syrian oil well. And considering that population - how many thousand are posting on here about their blown gasket experiences?

I don't actually commute in my RAV, it is typically only used for long journeys on the Motorway, followed by driving up and down dirt tracks and unmade roads. So, quite why a new rebuilt engine from Toyota should blow at 7000 miles and 15 months use is beyond me. I'm not driving like a nutter (Italian tune ups are reserved for Italian cars in my case) but then I'm not hanging around either in stop start traffic. I just don't buy the 'low mileage' argument at all in this case. If the gaskets all fail at about seven years... high milers will inevitably cover more miles before they blow. Although I can only speculate because I know nothing, this has to be fundamental poor engineering. Maybe the head is badly designed and is warping because of the torque generated in the engine.. that's one theory I've heard that seems to make the most sense, or maybe the gaskets aren't thick enough...

Either way the problem is that Toyota aren't spilling the beans when it comes to how may failures they are getting. So any discussion on this forum is likely to lead to either an excess of fear that any leak from the engine might be terminal, or the belief that in fact Toyota's are super reliable and it can't possibly happen to you (because it hasn't happened yet!). I can only tell you what happens to my car, and it isn't impressive for a brand that are supposed to be supplying reliable cars.

Back to the OP though... I do think you can be fairly relaxed about this, if you can't see gallons of coolant pouring out then take your time, it probably isn't as bad as you think. Enjoy your travels and the RAV and get it into your local garage to fix it when you get back. And if it isn't the head gasket (which it very well may not be) then be happy. B) Plastic and rubber does begin to perish, and iron rusts as time passes, it could be quite simple.. assume the best until it is the worst!

[firemac]

Personally, I like Italian cars and have run Fiats in the past with absolutely no problems. I've had 10 Toyotas since 2002 and have to say that their reliability has been stellar. I don't doubt that there are people who have had problems or bad experiences with Toyotas; at the end of the day they're just a collection of mechanical processes and therefore rely upon good maintenance and are just as susceptible to failure as any others. As I said before, the way that Toyota dealt with the 2Ad engine issue is to be applauded; I don't know of any other manufacturer who has responded like that.

[Aqualung666]

Well, I've made it to Devon....a 7 hour journey due to speed restrictions and queues I stopped twice to check the coolant and oil levels and both remained fine. Then when I checked the coolant this morning it was down to half full. Strange as it was fine when I arrived, so since overnight it appears to have leaked. Can't see any patches under the car but looks to be some dark staining come through and can be seen through the wheel arch.

Not sure what to do now....there doesn't appear to be oil in the coolant or vice versa, so maybe a leaking hose or the pump....Got two weeks to get around Devon now and then back to Yorkshire. Any advice welcomed, should I just keep topping it up or get it to a garage ?

[BJB]

Remember that the engine will have cooled down overnight and that could explain a drop in indicated level.

When you said it was down to half full, was that halfway between the full and low marks. It does not take a lot to drop the indicated level.

I would keep an eye on the level and enjoy my holiday.

Bryan

[Aqualung666]

Hi Bryan, it was showing as being on the full line when we drove down but this morning after being parked up all night it has dropped to half way between full and low. Not even sure where I could get this pink coolant around here as it's a bit remote...nearest town is Kingsbridge ?

[BJB]

If you need a temporary top up,use water. It will not matter to dilute the pink and it is summer so hopefully you will not need any antifreeze properties.

Never top up with any other type of antifreeze. They may not be compatible and its not worth risking.

Bryan

[FROSTYBALLS]

Snows Toyota - either Langage Business Park, Plympton, Plymouth PL7 5JY (12 miles away from Kingsbridge) or,

59 Totnes Rd, Paignton, TQ3 3RE (13 miles away from Kingsbridge)

[Aqualung666]

Thanks for the info..I will top it up tomorrow and see how it goes over the next day or two and if it is only a slow leak with no other symptoms just keep my eye on the levels while I'm down here ..if things worsen then it will be a call to the AA and a trip to the garage. I'm assuming that because there are no issues with loss of power or oil in coolant or vice versa things aren't too bad ...yet?

[firemac]

At the risk of stating the obvious, it's important that you fill the coolant reservoir when the engine is cold and that you only fill it to a point between the min & max levels.

It is a semi sealed system in that as the hot engine cools down, it will draw coolant out of the reservoir as the cooling water in the block contracts, hence one could assume a leak if the reservoir had been filled to its mark when the engine was hot. When the engine heats up, the water in the block expands and the excess volume is ejected into the reservoir; when you switch off, it cools and again draws coolant back from the reservoir. There is an overflow on the reservoir (as opposed to the radiator) to allow any excess coolant to be released rather than over-pressurise the system.

If the top-up has been done properly, it may be that you have a leak at the water pump seal. Toyota's water pumps are known to weep slightly, usually without any significant drop in coolant volume - I've run RAVs for years with weeping pumps with no ill effects. However if the pump is leaking you should be able to spot the leak at some point. Otherwise just go around the system and make sure that all the hoses are sound and their clips are done up securely.

[Aqualung666]

Well I'm totally confused, after arriving in Devon on Saturday evening, I had checked coolant on the Sunday morning and it had dropped to just above low, since then I've drove for a few shortish journey s and every morning I checked the level and it's on full! Is it me who is being stupid and this is how it works...if it shows as full in the morning then it must be full and then transfers back into the engine when it has a long run?