Selecting Neutral At High Speed

[Chrispy Duck]

Hi All,

I recently had a issue which I got two conflicting messages from Toyota and wanted to share and hopefully get advice...sorry for the long post...

My friend was driving my car on a dual carriageway and upon approaching a slow down section he stuck the car in neutral in which we were doing about 55-60mph. We were on the outside lane and the car came to an abrupt stop, equivalent of an emergency stop. Very fortunately the car behind was a good distance despite it being busy and was able to avoid a bad accident.

My friend after the incident said he had gone into 'auto-pilot' and put the car into neutral as you would to coast in a manual, because we were entering a slower section of road (thinking about it I have nearly done the same accidentally when entering into D slowly or reaching for the heating controls).

Now here's the issue - I wrote to Toyota after this and asked what the car should have done in this instance. For me this sounded like a fault with the car as the act of putting it into neutral, reverse, park or on/off should be designed above x mph. The response was as follows:

" I would advise the vehicle would not come to an abrupt stop if neutral is selected whilst driving. If neutral is selected whilst driving, the engine would coast and there would be an audible revving sound. I should also explain that if neutral is accidentally selected, there is a beep and a light on the dashboard illuminates. Whilst I understand your concerns, as I hope you will understand, the actions you have described would not be recommended and could not have been anticipated as part of the design process."

I wrote back explaining that none of this happened and that they contradicted themselves as the act of putting the car into neutral was anticipated hence it should have made audible revving sound, light on dashboard etc (I explained it doesn't matter how it goes into neutral, it's what happens after is the important part). Overall I was disappointed with their response even after subsequent emails. I took it to the dealership to be checked and all systems were fine, no problems - they mentioned that there was no reported incident like this in the whole of Toyota group! ...I'm dubious on this. Anyway they checked everything they knew (inc tech library) and ended giving me a photocopy of page 303 of the manual (4-2 Driving procedures) which reads:

"When shifting from P to N, D or R, from D to R, or from R to D, ensure that the brake pedal is being depressed and that the vehicle is stationary"

Now this doesn't state "from D to N" but apparently is the closest they could get to an answer. Personally I think the answer is poor and I'm being fobbed off from a costly repair from them (plus they couldn't help with my alarm randomly setting off which I also found the answer to).

Now:

1) Has anyone put their car into N, R , park , on/off whist driving and what happened? And at what speed? Or do you know what should happen to the car in this incidence?

2) Given the responses and that I have a few months of my warranty left, what should I do? The car is running sound but I feel this is a safety issue if the first answer from Toyota is correct.

Thanks for any help and advice, much appreciated.

[unclepoo]

I`m not sure you want from Toyota....You let someone drive your car, who drove in such a way I would call bad practice at best in a manual car....and plain stupid in an automatic or hydrid....if you end up with a large bill for repairs, send it to the driver at the time.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Well if you think there may be a safety issue you can report the issue to DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency) - https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-recalls-and-faults/report-a-serious-safety-defect

DVSA will investigate the issue with the manufacturer, but if there are either no other reports or only a small number of similar reports, it won't result in a recall.

However, note the provisos on the DVSA web page -

Things aren’t classed as a serious safety defect if:

• they can be found during routine maintenance and servicing
• you’re warned about them by warning lights, noticeable changes in handling and unusual noises
• they’re caused by you misusing the vehicle, eg overloading your vehicle causing a tyre failure

[CPN]

Totally agree with unclepoo in post #2! Don't know who taught your friend that it was OK to put the car into neutral at any time whilst the car is moving but there was a time when such an action would have been an instant driving test fail!

[Chrispy Duck]

unclepoo & Colin - I completely agree, my muppet friend will never drive my car again and shouldn't drive like that in a manual let alone hybrid. But you both seem to have missed the point - it's not how it goes into neutral (in this case a stupid accident by a poor driver), it's what should happen subsequently. In this case I have two different answers from the same manufacturer. In my mind the car should be designed for incidents like this. If it has then the car didn't perform what it should do and therefore a safety issue

Frostyballs - Thanks, I'm tempted to go down this route but will first see if anyone else has been in a similar situation and what happened to them

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Personally I think your friend wasn't familiar with an automatic and went to press the clutch with his left foot and hit the brake pedal instead. If anyone has ever done this they'll know you stop on a sixpence.

Driver error. End of.

[Dapple]

I agree with GC. Left foot braking approaching a junction on autopilot is what stops you like this.

My missus has a 2010 Auris HSD and I have put it in neutral at speed.

This was due to me being an idiot and the gear selector being the other hand to my Prius.

The car simply coasted and I put it back into drive still at speed and carried on.

I don't recommend doing this but it caused no problem in her car.

[Joseph D]

Whilst I have never actually put my Gen II Prius in to N at speed, I have read many a thread where it has been discussed.

The answer from your Toyota outlet "If neutral is selected whilst driving, the engine would coast" is consistent with what I have read and so would look for other reasons to explain your scenario.

I lean towards GC & Dapple's hypothesis that your friend pressed the brake with his left foot while on auto-pilot.

You didn't mention how you got the car to resume driving after this. Dis you simply put it in D and drive away?

[cootuk]

Isn't this the recommended unofficial procedure for cleaning the brakes?

Put into neutral at speed to turn off regen, then brake hard - mine flips to neutral and coasts.

It does sound like they dipped the non-existant clutch and braked instead.

When there was that bad crash in the US with the alledged run-away Prius, people were asking why he didn't flip to neutral and coast to a halt.

[PeteB]

I accidentally bumped the P button at speed once and it just beeped once (or maybe twice) and went into N - no drama, just momentary gently deceleration until I flicked back into D.

I too think the left foot on brake seems the most likely reason.

[johalareewi]

Has anyone put their car into N, R , park , on/off whist driving and what happened? And at what speed? Or do you know what should happen to the car in this incidence?

Yes:Putting a toyota hybrid into N at any speed puts the car into N mode (but you have to hold it in N for a few seconds).If you press P while on the move, the car goes straight into N mode.Going into R while going forward results in some don't be silly beeps.Handy Hint: If you have a case of stuck accelerator, hit P (for PANIC) or put the car in N mode.If you are going slowly (less than about 3 mph) P will stop the car dead (not advised) and R will go into reverse as you are going forwards. Can make for some swift 3 point turns :)

My friend was driving my car on a dual carriageway and upon approaching a slow down section he stuck the car in neutral in which we were doing about 55-60mph. We were on the outside lane and the car came to an abrupt stop, equivalent of an emergency stop. Very fortunately the car behind was a good distance despite it being busy and was able to avoid a bad accident.My friend after the incident said he had gone into 'auto-pilot' and put the car into neutral as you would to coast in a manual, because we were entering a slower section of road

I concur with GC.Your friend went into manual car mode, and depressed the clutch to change gear.But there is no clutch pedal so either pressed the parking brake or the brake pedal.

[Joseph D]

Isn't this the recommended unofficial procedure for cleaning the brakes?

Put into neutral at speed to turn off regen, then brake hard - mine flips to neutral and coasts.

...

Yes, except it is recommended that you do not exceed 42 mph, so that one of the MG's does not overspeed.

[timberwolf]

I think one of the MG's can only over-speed when the petrol engine is not spinning, if the engine revs go up then the hybrid system is presumably looking after itself.

A shame about the elephant in the room though.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Where's the OP?

[Wiz201]

I had a Jazz CVT before and dad used to coast it downhill at low speeds in traffic. I suspect your friend hit the brake pedal instead of the clutch (common jumpy left foot syndrome for anyone driving an automatic car for the first time) as the Jazz never braked on its own, it just rolls down the hill unless you press the brake pedal. Its a dangerous habit to do it at high speeds though whether in an automatic or a manual.

I drive an MMT Aygo now and let it do its own engine braking on hills.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

I had a Jazz CVT before and dad used to coast it downhill at low speeds in traffic. I suspect your friend hit the brake pedal instead of the clutch (common jumpy left foot syndrome for anyone driving an automatic car for the first time) as the Jazz never braked on its own, it just rolls down the hill unless you press the brake pedal. Its a dangerous habit to do it at high speeds though whether in an automatic or a manual.

I drive an MMT Aygo now and let it do its own engine braking on hills.

They Jazz would have been a proper CVT though (Belt / Band driven) where as the Toyota Hybrid CVTs are not, and as such wouldn't necessarily behave the same, but agree it sounds like left foot braking.

[PeteB]

The Toyota MMT transmission includes an inclinometer and it uses this to change the behavior of the transmission according to the incline of the road - downhill, especially when steep, will cause earlier downshifts to increase engine braking.

I've driven a few true (belts/cones) CVTs including the Nissan Micra (Mk 2), Honda Insight and Honda Jazz. To me, when in "D", they and Toyota/Lexus Hybrids all feel very similar in the way they respond to throttle pressures and hills (albeit it with more or less urgency relative to the amount of power on tap - the 2½ ton Lexus LS long wheelbase Hybrid can really shift given a serious prod with the right foot!).

[Chrispy Duck]

Thanks All, interesting reading... in summary yes it should coast in neutral and that the guys in the dealership didn't have a clue (worryingly).

I spoke to my friend last night and he is adamant that he didn't press his foot on the brake - I do side with him as I was in the back of the car at the time and the force of it stopping was something else... he said that if he had pressed the brake he would have released straight away and not left it there until we had fully stopped (to answer a previous question, yes once stopped we put the car back into D and set off).

Either way I tested the car today at 10, 20 and 30 mph by putting it into neutral and indeed it coasted as it should do (the audible beeping and lights Toyota said I should get didn't happen, although it sounds like that didn't happen to others either...). I was tempted to put it into P and R but didn't dare. Think I'll never find out exactly why it happened but do feel slightly reassured now.

[CPN]

Just a word of warning, do not even THINK about putting it in P whilst the vehicle is moving; even if only slowly! The vehicle must be actually stopped before doing this! The reason is because P is a mechanical lock on the transmission using a pawl mechanism. It's quite possible to do some serious damage to this mechanism if you attempt to engage it whilst the vehicle is actually moving.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I wonder if the Yaris HSD is different but with the Prius you can press Park whilst driving and it'll just beep at you and drop into Neutral, well unless you're going less than about 5 or 7 mph and which point it engages it with a bang ;)

Good practice is to stop. I never really used the Park button as the car automatically dropped into Park when you switched it off. Again I think the Yaris HSD is different.

[PeteB]

Yes, the Yaris Hybrid has a traditional automatic type shifter (P-R-N-D-B ). So whilst I would have no worries pressing P at speed in a Prius or Auris, I wouldn't want to risk shifting to P in a Yaris.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a safety override, or even if it was blocked from being selected while moving, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way...

[barrycoll]

The Prius footbrake would not respond to your friend removing his foot from the pedal Chris, as it would need a second push to release the locking mechanism, a la (old fashioned) hand brake

This would not be a natural instinct to do, unless the car was solidly familiar to him

[Dapple]

It would appear from what has been said that the Prius can cope well with abuse, and generally won't do the wrong thing when asked, like go into reverse at 70mph (I know someone who achieved this in a manual, and reduced his vans gearbox to iron filings).

However the classic error of drivers coming from manual to autos happens as you slow down after a long steady speed run, when you wouldn't have been gearchanging in a manual. As you lift off the throttle the brain reverts to autopilot, some try to change down, and some try to select neutral. In most cases this also requires a declutch, and so the left foot stamps on the clutch. As there is no clutch pedal this foot normally finds the brake pedal in an auto and results in a thunderstop. I have done it many times as I have had a mix of manuals and autos. In all cases it was my error, not the cars. Even recently though when I had to emergency stop I tried to declutch at the same time. BSM trained this into me 30 years ago, and it would appear the reflex is still there.

Chrispy, for your own peace of mind, you need to get your friend to understand this is what probably happened. Then they can get on with understanding these reflexes are simply trained in, and they needn't be embarrassed about it, and you can get on with trusting your car to do what it's told.