Unexplained Judder

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Hi All...

I cannot remember if I have posted my issue previously...however it wasn't as bad back then!

My issue is: I am inside my car...regardless of whether engine is cold or warm...start car...clutch in...select 1st...find biting point...handbrake down...start to drive off...AND THERE IT IS...like a judder...as if the car is jumping forward slightly...not coming from the clutch pedal but from the engine bay some place...its noticeable and its embarrassing!

I have heard of an issue with the tensioner maybe needs replacing...OR could it be a cutch issue???

Need some help ASAP with my MOT coming up next week.

My other issue is what I think might be my drop links...getting a slight knock when driving around...mainly when I begin to turn right...that very first small movement turn on the wheel, my cv's seem intact and dry/no split boots...but there seems to be a lot of play in my drop links...pot hole damage may be?

I look forward to any help or suggestions.

Sammy

[oldcodger]

Hi Sammy,

Well here's me driving around with a beautifully smooth and relatively light clutch with a biting point about midway and not a hint of any judder .... :D

Sounds like you have what could be a worn clutch as mine would also do that when the engine was fully warmed up.

However as metioned on that other thread about the aux belt tensioner, I did take my belt off and undo the tensioner assembly ( quiet easy) so I could inspect the tensioner damper and its bearings.

I did find about 1mm of play in them but nothing I would consider badly worn.

However that post did talk about several mm of play so perhaps with that degree of wear it could be a factor, and from what he said after correcting wear, he said it cured the judder; though must confess I do find it hard to see how wear in that part could cause such judder ?

Its only a 30min job to strip it out and reconnect so would check it out before doing anything else.

Assume you have also inspected the 4 engine mount rubbers to ensure none of them are broken in any way ? as that could also give you judder.

As for your mot, do not think clutch judder its a mot failure unless they consider it mechanically dangerous (?) but think that would have to be a really bad judder all the time.

I had a slight knock on my suspension at last summers MOT but the tester said he could not find any play.

Its still there so will be checking it out again as like you the test is due next month.

Yes, those drop links are about # 1 for early wear, and if you can feel play thats probably the cause.

The tester also said the 2 front antiroll bar bushes are the next most common cause of such a knock.

The other cause he suggested was the brake pads knocking again things upon release /starting off/ or going over a bump.

Hope some of that helps ...

Let us know how things go....

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Hi OldCodger...I knew that I could rely on you my dear old friend,

You clutch sounds a dream, I don't think that it is my clutch, gear changes are super smooth, pedal sees fine too, and now I don't know if it is the tensioner, pushing my finger down on the belt from the top it seems fine, not much movement, so I might just give up on this issue and live wit it!

Engine mounts...always crossed my mind from the day that I bought the car...the engine always seemed to vibrate and shake more than I would have expected, I will have to visually check them at the weekend.

Drop links are a definite...purchased those this afternoon along with my service parts.

So hopefully...this weekend...change drop links both sides...full service...and hope that it passes its MOT next week...will keep you posted my friend.

[oldcodger]

Hi Sammy,

Just pressing the aux belt probably won't show up and wear in that damper as its still under tension.

Its best if you remove the belt and the damper assembly so you can check the joints without any load on them.

You will need an extension to the spanner to release the belt, its surprisingly tense.

(is your belt due for replacement anyway - mine was at 8 years old)

Removing the damper and arm, just 2 bolt/nuts, is easy and allows yo to properly inspect the joints and also the black idler; seems its bearing can be a sorce of noise if badly worn.

As said, I cannot understand how such wear could cause the judder, but cannot see that guy bothering to post about it if not.

These pics might help...

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Evening

Thank you for those diagrams mate, much appreciated, I might give it a check once I am done with the drop links, then again I might just leave alone, the belt is still good nick, hardly any sign of wear, its a Gates so they normally last like forever, but going back to the tensioner...its a real shame that they don't sell just the shocker looking thing instead of having to buy the whole arm with it, at £80.00+ it isn't cheap.

Will keep you posted matey, take care.

[roks]

Hi Sam/Oldcodger,

I get a bit judder as well but only when I initially drive off, its ok after 5-10min when the engine is warm. I can somewhat controll the judder with cobination of more gas and clutch in a tiny bit.

I also hear a clank sound, only when reversing and turning, ie, when I reverse parking bay ( and not in full lock yet). Its like metal bar hitting each other and it would only do it once, I'd have to drive straight few meters to reproduce the sound.

I replaced the Links last year with a Meyle HD (4yr warranty), I have not raise the car to check the links yet as i didnt think they woiuld go that quick.

This sound started few days days after MOT and wheel alignment.

[oldcodger]

Its hard to say what your 'clank' is, think you need to get under and have a look, though doubt its your drop links gone already.

When those clowns replaced my clutch I had a clank when reversing, found they had jacked the engine too high and the engine mounted exhaust heat shield had tangled with the transmission tunnel mounted heat shield , and when just in reverse they came together.

You could have something similar , so a good look might spot something.

Could also be wear /slop in the driveshaft cvs but again only when loaded backwards.. ? or even the anti roll bar bushes , again when the load is shifted from forward to backwards ..?

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Afternoon my Old Codger...

Hope everything is okay your side!

Just a quick update...replaced my drop links yesterday...went well...was a breeze in fact, a simple job indeed, and now they look nice and shiny, whereas the old ones...dear lord...when I say that they were worn...you could blow at the ends and they would start to move around lol...anyway, had a good look while I was underneath...everything seems sound...except noticed a slight leak at the ball joint passenger side...thought damn...but its only slight, certainly no play or no knocking as yet...wonder if the mot guy would fail me for this?

And I haven't noticed any judder in the last few days, but I did ask a fellow friend mechanic his opinion the other day who tested it with a spanner with the engine on and off and said that there was loads of tension on it...he could hardly budge it, so I don't think that is the problem, what ever it is it seems weather related at times...weird

And Oh yes I also noticed taht my exhaust is making a weird sound...sort of blowing type or choking sound...noticed it after I sprayed a can of Wynns carb cleaner through my engine at the air inlet via the air box...have always done this at major service intervals...did a full service too by the way yesterday lol...nothing better than seeing fresh oil and clean filters hey! Been using 5w/30 fully synth for the last few services...seems to work well in my opinion...might try 10w/30 on the next one!

Any hoo, will let you know how the mot goes, have a great weekend all.

[oldcodger]

Hi Sammy,

Sounds like you had a busy weekend !

However your post made me wonder ..

I checked out the front end the other day but could not find any play in anything including the drop link.

When I say play, I was feeling and prying for any vertical movement in the links.

But if I put finger and thumb onto the middle of the link I can easily turn them left and right .

So wonder if I am testing the correct way ?

Assume the easier they are to move left to right then the more likely there is play in there ?

Although I have a little knock , the mot tester did say he could not find any problem with them last year , and thy feel the same now as they did then.

So not quiet sure if mine are good or not ? What say you ?

Also wondered what brand on links you fitted , seem so many names out there?

Wonder which ball joint you mean, assume its the wishbone bottom ball joint ?

If you can see grease, then it seal is leaking , which means road muck will be getting inside.

Quiet easy to replace as the ball joint is a separate peice, just three bolts/nuts on the underside to release from the wishbone and the top nut.

You could use a joint separator to relase it, though that Wheeler Dealer guy just give the joints a simple crack with a lump hammer. (assume you have seen that tv series )

mot rules revised 2012 to include this

Missing, or split/damaged dust covers on steering and suspension
ball-joints will result in failure if they will allow dirt to enter the
joint.

As for the tension on your aux belt, there will be plenty , regardless of any wear on the dampers, its not the dampers pressure but its little top and bottom joints/bushes.

Think that OP was saying that when under load when the clutch is being engaged and the whole engne starts moving on the mountings etc thats when that dampers worn joints can give that symptom.

Wish I could find his post to ask him more about it in case it was 'just one of those things' and the problem returned and proved to be the clutch.

What did your mechanic friend say about the clutch judder ??

Take care..

Edit - found Stevens original reply to your original post about clutch judder and just asked him about if he still sees the damper as the real cause.

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

HI Codger...

Well...it passed...yay...panic over for another year although I do keep an eye on things very regular! The tester didn't pick up on that BOTTOM ball joint at all...but he did call me in to the bay area to show me the rust on the underside...he was so impressed with how I look after her...and she was exceptionally shiny on the outside and very clean on the inside...that's just me...but he recommended that I seal the under sides since he could see how well I look after her...seriously he was impressed, but then he says that every year that I see him, makes me feel proud, and my drop links looked very smart from an under view...lol.

I test my drop links by simply twisting the link side to side...and then judge how easy they move, the new ones wont even budge, the old ones had so much play I could use my baby finger to move them! if you feel that's yours aren't as they should be...change them, they're cheap and easy to fix...I went for Blue Print as always, cost me £8.50 a side.

As for the tensioner, I cant be bothered for now, it seems to have gone, I will be concentrating on sealing my undersides and replacing my bottom ball joints at some point.

And oh you wont believe what happened, okay so the mot passed, got back in my car, drove a mile down the road...and I noticed my engine light on, that's never happened, so I turned around and went back to have a word with my tester, I panicked, he was adamant that it wasn't on when he did the test and it sailed the emission test, he couldn't explain it, so I started thinking...should I pull the efi fuse and see if it re sets...tried it and it didn't work...now I have to admit after changing the plugs at the weekend it was idling a bit rough...but I didn't think to check it out and i admit that I didn't test drive her either at the weekend...so I took out the plugs today...and noticed one plug was a dodgy one...the tip was literally touching as if it had been dropped...exchanged it for a new one with no arguments from my motor factor guy...disconnected the Battery to reset the light...and she runs as sweet as a jaguar...so the day was saved...now I'm wondering if by removing the efi fuse whether I might have caused any other issues...I panic way too much...remember the old Avensis...I never want to see that light again...nightmare!

Speak soon

[oldcodger]

Hi Sammy.

Well done , good fo another year

Removing the EFI fuse should not cause any problems, though think we are all guilty of not checking the gaps on new spark plugs, they are generaly correctly set, we should still check them with the old feeler guages.

Bit surprised it did the emissions test ok if one cylinder was virtually out.

I disconnected one end of a drop link and could not feel any play and though I could move the joint around it was not loose enogh to flop under its own weight, so thought they were ok.

However if I could by Blueprints for £8.50 its not worth messing around, though no idea where you can get them at that price ?? - typically towards £20 each most oher places ..?

Just been under mine today doing the rear brakes etc, there is rust around but very little on the actual bodywork, its seems very sound.

What do rust are the front wishbones and the rear trailing arm which I have been cleaning off and treating with kurust and hammerite.

The metal straps holding up the petrol tank and its heat shield also have some rust.

Also use a can of spray white grease for around the brake pipes/ferrules and other hard to get to places under there, it does stop more rust forming and importantly does not affect anything rubber etc.

A real nice mucky job, but better done when up on some ramps so you have enough room to wiggle under !

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Evening...

My point exactly...one cylinder down...and it sailed through...i just dont get it...and when i compare my emissions reports from last year to the test today...my figures are lower than last years...guess that wynns carb clean did its job...not the best but its okay.

I agree 8.50 was cheap...i use a local motor factor...friend for years...certain he gets his parts from Parkers but gives them to me at zer profit to him...i think...but he has always sorted me out...and i always ask for Blue Print products, quoted me 70.00 if i needed the tensioner which is not bad...and 25.00 for the bottom ball joints x2 if i need them...so he is reasonable and at those prices i'd rather replace what i need and since i save on labour...double bonus!

I admit i didnt even look at the plugs...went straight in...but from now on...oh yes...ill be checking them at point of sale.

And i agree...my rust patches are exactly where you describe yours...especially the wishbones, apparently they rust from the inside out!!! Coming to think of it...i dont remember seeing any straps around my tank...hmm...must check that.

I noticed...you're a massive fan of white grease...lol...i still have my tin from when you made me buy some for the Avensis...cant remember why i needed it...sure it was clutch related...lol, but yes good stuff.

Keep in touch and take care matey

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Evening old codger and all,

I am in Need of some advice guys please.

You when several things go wrong and all at the same time...yup...its happening to me.

Okay, so i have noticed this slight "dunk" sound...mainly when i steer left...and pulling off...and just as i begin to turn my steering from straight...just cant figure where its coming from...recently changed the drop links...thinking that was the cause...decided to have a look underneath her today as the weather was perfect for it...noticed a grease leak from my passenger lower ball joint...AND my outer tie rod end...both leaking...but hardly any play in them at all...so i am thinking should i try replace them both and on the drivers side too obviously...i'll then have to have it tracked again...BUT what if its coming from the inner track rod end??? Or even some where along the steering shaft??? Its a very slight "dunk" but enough to annoy me.

Then there's the drivebelt squeal...oh yes...annoying, now where did that come from?

She's getting old i know but seriously.

Please let me know your thoughts, thank you.

[oldcodger]

Hey Sam,

Whats with all the problems all of a sudden ??

Assume you have checked your new drop links have not failed / and their nuts not loosened ?

As for the inner track rod end, had that started to wear on the old Avensis just before I sold it.

I never noticed any problem or noise, but the mot tester found the play.

With it jacked up, holding the tyre at th 9 ;15 position and applying pressure it, back and forth, you can feel the play, but if your track rod end was also worn, you could not really do such a test.

For the price of the ball joints and track rod ends it hardly worth messing around, just a spanner job to replace them all.

Just remember to mark the position of the rod ends on the tie bar and count the number of whole turns so you get the new ones back in a reasonable position.

Wonder if fitting the new drop links has just put that bit more pressure back on to those joints and they could not stand any more pressure ?

The fact that they are leaking grease really is an indicator they need replacing sooner or later.

Also worth looking at the two large bushes on the suspension arm, they could also create such a noise, think the rear ones are more prone to wear.

Might be worth looking at the antiroll bar bushes, again the new drop links might be showing up any wear in them.

( in my days with company cars , long, long ago , had one serviced by Vauxhall and next day driving on the mway the front end started wobbling violently, pulled up sharpish and found all the wheel nuts half off, clearly not torqued up. Still not as frightening as your wheel coming off at 45deg as the bottom ball joint falls apart - used to see that quiet a few times on my travels - scary ! )

[SAM LOVERS HER TOYOTAS]

Good Morning Oldcodger...

Hi, Thank you for your in depth reply mate.

I have checked my new drop links...definitely haven't failed...all nice and tight!

I have checked for play in my wheels as you stated...nothing what so ever!

I have decided to live with what ever is causing this slight "dunk" sound, even though the parts are cheap...i.e ball joints and track ends etc...I don't want to go replacing things to find out that its something else...I will have to wait for whatever it is to may be get a little worse so that I can identify where its coming from...its so difficult to determine it right now!

I totally agree when you say that the new drop links could be applying more pressure causing these other issues...it makes sense...and I have decided to give up!

[oldcodger]

Hi Sammy,

It can be annoying trying to find the sorce of a noise.

Seems the drop links and antiroll bar bushes are the frequent sorce of such knocks

Also the suspension strut top bearing is said to cause some knocks though perhaps a bit hard to test in situ and even harder to get out.

Just reading your description again, more a 'dunk' than a knock, could it be a bit of play in the cv joints ? just like when you are coasting and then suddenly apply heavy power, like starting off, the joints slack is taken up but with a bit of a dunk ?

Often get that kind of noise on a high mileage.

Thanks for your comments on my other post, can remember you talking about those Gaitors , but not sure if you had actually bought some.

Think as you say, they can be wrecked by just one small scrap, think I will just have to manually touch up, new wheels or proper refurbishment, just not worth it for me.

Just treated myself this afters, one of the things I wish I had when doing the clutch / engine brackets was a set of those flexible head ratchet spanners.

Auto Express tested the Halfords Pro sets as the best not long ago and they have the 9 piece £80 set on offer at £40.

( not to be confused with the 12 piece set also at £40 which has fixed head)

Might a while before I need to use them, just doing the annual dust and polish prior to the mot.

Completed the mechanical check over last week, all ok, but did notice one brake slider a bit tight, expected it to be a bit corroded but no it was fine, but it was the one with the rubber fitted and it was starting to 'blow' out , so making it too hard slide.

Pad wear is even but think I will need to get some new slider pins soon.

Always something !

Take Care .