Vibrations Over 60mph Sr180

[john_y]

Hi,

I have been having some vibrations coming through the strearing wheel for a little time.

I had my mechanic check it out and he said one of the discs was slightly rusty and we thought the disc wasn't aligned so another pair were fitted.

Unfortunately, this has not cured the vibrations over 60mph which are most noticeable when moving the stearing wheel from left to right. When I move it from right to left the vibrations completely disappear.

I wondered what it could be something to do with the steering rack, ball joints, wheel bearings, drive shafts, suspension HELP please!!!

Best wishes,

John

[TomdeGuerre]

Vibrations can be hard to trace, as a quickie you could try swopping over the rear wheels to the front. If it makes no difference at least you've eliminated any questions about wheels or tyres. Didn't your mechanic test any of the ball joints, wheel bearings etc for wear?

[john_y]

Vibrations can be hard to trace, as a quickie you could try swopping over the rear wheels to the front. If it makes no difference at least you've eliminated any questions about wheels or tyres. Didn't your mechanic test any of the ball joints, wheel bearings etc for wear?

Hi, thanks for your reply - he did swap the back and front wheels around.

I think he tested the wheel bearings and tried to rock the wheels into the arch and back.

I have a new set of discs on the front and if it's not sorted they will wear the same pattern as the old ones and I will have to pay for a new set

[TomdeGuerre]

I don't want to get into a guessing game as to what's causing your vibration but you said when you moved the steering wheel from right to left it disappeared (the vibration that is, not the steering wheel). It's possibly wear in the inner steering rack end joints, especially the drivers side. These are spring loaded ball joints which articulate to allow for suspension movement and they do wear but they're covered with a gaiter.

One way to check them is to jack the car up and lower it onto supports so that the suspension is compressed, not fully extended. Get someone to move the road wheel side to side while someone holds the steering wheel against them, you should be able to see if there's any movement or lift in the joint. In the old days we used a repair kit to fix these but you can get a replacement track rod complete with the end joint from eBay.

[john_y]

I don't want to get into a guessing game as to what's causing your vibration but you said when you moved the steering wheel from right to left it disappeared (the vibration that is, not the steering wheel). It's possibly wear in the inner steering rack end joints, especially the drivers side. These are spring loaded ball joints which articulate to allow for suspension movement and they do wear but they're covered with a gaiter.

One way to check them is to jack the car up and lower it onto supports so that the suspension is compressed, not fully extended. Get someone to move the road wheel side to side while someone holds the steering wheel against them, you should be able to see if there's any movement or lift in the joint. In the old days we used a repair kit to fix these but you can get a replacement track rod complete with the end joint from Ebay.

Thanks, that's where we shall start

[john_y]

I don't want to get into a guessing game as to what's causing your vibration but you said when you moved the steering wheel from right to left it disappeared (the vibration that is, not the steering wheel). It's possibly wear in the inner steering rack end joints, especially the drivers side. These are spring loaded ball joints which articulate to allow for suspension movement and they do wear but they're covered with a gaiter.

One way to check them is to jack the car up and lower it onto supports so that the suspension is compressed, not fully extended. Get someone to move the road wheel side to side while someone holds the steering wheel against them, you should be able to see if there's any movement or lift in the joint. In the old days we used a repair kit to fix these but you can get a replacement track rod complete with the end joint from Ebay.

Thanks, that's where we shall start - and I will let you know how we get on.

Car is due for MOT mid November so will get both done at the same time

[john_y]

On 13 August 2015 at 10:42 AM, john_y said:

 

Hi, iam still struggling with this problem, do you think it might be steering rack mounting has come loose or the bushes within could have perished?

[TomdeGuerre]

Hi again John, I thought your car was a lot better after you changed  the inner steering rack end joints, sorry to hear it's still misbehaving. Is it still the same defect as you described in your first post? Changing the rack rubber mounts might help but I always associated them with steering wander if they were bad. But you never know.

Can I just say this though. I happened to be driving an old Volvo S40 a couple of weeks ago and the way it rattled and vibrated over 65 to 70 mph reminded me of the old bangers I used to drive (and I don't mean any disrespect). Sometimes it's a combination of wear and tear in all the driveline components and it would not be economically feasible to renew the lot to get it driving smoothly again. this might not be the case with yours - and I hope not but it's difficult to try to diagnose it by" remote viewing"..  

[Cyker]

This may be a stupid question but have you checked the tyres/wheels are properly balanced? Also, if the tracking/toe-in is off that can cause vibrations too.
 

[john_y]

On 13/03/2016 at 6:37 PM, TomdeGuerre said:

Hi again John, I thought your car was a lot better after you changed  the inner steering rack end joints, sorry to hear it's still misbehaving. Is it still the same defect as you described in your first post? Changing the rack rubber mounts might help but I always associated them with steering wander if they were bad. But you never know.

Can I just say this though. I happened to be driving an old Volvo S40 a couple of weeks ago and the way it rattled and vibrated over 65 to 70 mph reminded me of the old bangers I used to drive (and I don't mean any disrespect). Sometimes it's a combination of wear and tear in all the driveline components and it would not be economically feasible to renew the lot to get it driving smoothly again. this might not be the case with yours - and I hope not but it's difficult to try to diagnose it by" remote viewing"..  

Hi Tom,

It did get 99% better but it's getting progressively worse the more miles I cover which leads me to think it's a perishable part such as rubber bushings. BTW thanks for your advice!

Cyker, so far I have replaced front disks and pads, both inner steering rack end joints, 3d hunter lazer  wheel alignment, swapped tyres round and changed both front tyres, specialist (jeff fowkes) examined alloy wheels etc. 

Parts King advises don't sell bushes you have to buy the whole rack but if I can find the bush size I notice polybush sells miscellaneous bush sizes:

http://www.polybush.co.uk/pages/cant-find-what-youre-looking-for

[john_y]

Hi,

Went to visit mechanic this morning who got it up on the ramp - definitely NOT steering rack mount bushings as it's solidly mounted into the subframe - this really threw me.

His best advice was to change both the wishbones as these have the largest bushes in them - cost approx. £200

Does your sr180 have bushes in the steering rack mountings?

Any advice/ comments would be  much appreciated!

[lzsteve]

John,

  just a few questions about this problem.

Can you identify any particular incident that started this ?

What mileage has the car done ?

Are the top bearings on the front struts ok ?

Take it to an MOT garage and ask the tester to check the suspension.

Change the front wheels to the back and vice-versa.

Hope this helps.

 

[john_y]

1 hour ago, lzsteve said:

John,

  just a few questions about this problem.

Can you identify any particular incident that started this ? Nope

What mileage has the car done ?  95k

Are the top bearings on the front struts ok ? Yes

Take it to an MOT garage and ask the tester to check the suspension. Done

Change the front wheels to the back and vice-versa. Done

Hope this helps.

 

 

[TomdeGuerre]

Well at least you've eliminated the rack bushes, that's progress. So now the advice is to change the bottom wishbones complete with bushes hmmmm. There's no doubt at 95,000 miles any of the suspension components could be candidates for replacement due to wear etc but I'd have though if the wishbone bushes were significantly worn this would have shown up when you had the 3D Hunter alignment check done. Still possible though, yes.

Is the vibration engine speed related? Can you bring it on at any revs while sitting still or at specific points through the gears? I'm thinking engine mounts, DMF on the way out, clutch assy out of balance or engine internal balance thingmies wallloping about.

Does the vibration continue even if you put the gear stick into neutral?

I don't know, there's been a number of professional mechanics have examined your car and no one seems to have come up with the answer so far. I take it they have checked for wear in the steering column mechanism since any looseness there could result in a rattle/vibration.

Maybe Parts King or Devon Aygo can shed some light on this? Please!!! 

[john_y]

On 16/03/2016 at 4:48 PM, TomdeGuerre said:

Well at least you've eliminated the rack bushes, that's progress. So now the advice is to change the bottom wishbones complete with bushes hmmmm. There's no doubt at 95,000 miles any of the suspension components could be candidates for replacement due to wear etc but I'd have though if the wishbone bushes were significantly worn this would have shown up when you had the 3D Hunter alignment check done. Still possible though, yes.

Is the vibration engine speed related? Can you bring it on at any revs while sitting still or at specific points through the gears? I'm thinking engine mounts, DMF on the way out, clutch assy out of balance or engine internal balance thingmies wallloping about.

Does the vibration continue even if you put the gear stick into neutral?

I don't know, there's been a number of professional mechanics have examined your car and no one seems to have come up with the answer so far. I take it they have checked for wear in the steering column mechanism since any looseness there could result in a rattle/vibration.

Maybe Parts King or Devon Aygo can shed some light on this? Please!!! 

Hi Tom,

The vibration is caused by something rubbing on the brake disk  intermittently eventually causing a patch where rust appears - probably a pad. Disks and pads have been changed and calipers checked.

Doesn't matter if it's in gear or not and it's most noticeable above 60 mph when turning from right to left but I don't think its speed related.

[Parts-King]

Vibrations are always tricky to find, there can be so many places they can start from. Always eliminate the easiest things, swap tyres around, check rack and column UJ's / joints, CV joints etc, it is not common for vibrations to be coming through wishbones and subframes, plus they are normally the most expensive components to change. If you are not careful you could end up throwing a lot of money at it and still find no cure, which im sure you have already thought of  

Has the car had anything replaced recently? New clutch? anything removed and fitted again? I had a RAV recently that caused problems with a vibration, it ended up with a gearbox change, as it turned out a faulty gearbox bearing, very difficult to find 

[john_y]

On 17/03/2016 at 3:45 PM, Parts-King said:

Vibrations are always tricky to find, there can be so many places they can start from. Always eliminate the easiest things, swap tyres around, check rack and column UJ's / joints, CV joints etc, it is not common for vibrations to be coming through wishbones and subframes, plus they are normally the most expensive components to change. If you are not careful you could end up throwing a lot of money at it and still find no cure, which im sure you have already thought of  

Has the car had anything replaced recently? New clutch? anything removed and fitted again? I had a RAV recently that caused problems with a vibration, it ended up with a gearbox change, as it turned out a faulty gearbox bearing, very difficult to find 

Hi 'Parts King", 

Thanks for this and email reply, "Yes the rack is mounted to the subframe, but there are two bushes that go through the rack, they are the ones you cannot buy" - if one of the two bushes perished could deflection forces causes the brake pad to rub on the brake disk please.

 

[Parts-King]

That would be hard to imagine, I doubt it, im sure you would see considerable wear in the bush for that, and there is not such wear from your initial investigation??

 

[john_y]

On 17/03/2016 at 4:18 PM, Parts-King said:

That would be hard to imagine, I doubt it, im sure you would see considerable wear in the bush for that, and there is not such wear from your initial investigation??

 

 

On 17/03/2016 at 4:18 PM, Parts-King said:

That would be hard to imagine, I doubt it, im sure you would see considerable wear in the bush for that, and there is not such wear from your initial investigation??

 

Again thanks for the reply.

When mechanic saw a bolt in the rack was hard mounted to the subframe the investigation stopped.

Going to take it back for a more thorough look early next week.

Don't have £900 to spend on a new rack as was made redundant last october from prison teaching job which left me in not a good 'head space'.

[TomdeGuerre]

23 hours ago, john_y said:

Hi Tom,

The vibration is caused by something rubbing on the brake disk  intermittently eventually causing a patch where rust appears - probably a pad. Disks and pads have been changed and calipers checked.

Doesn't matter if it's in gear or not and it's most noticeable above 60 mph when turning from right to left but I don't think its speed related.

 

re "something rubbing on the brake disc......... causing a patch where rust appears" .... exactly whereabouts does this patch appear? Is it on the outer edge of the disc or on the working face of the disc, if so is it outer or inner face? Do you have a photo?

[john_y]

Tom, on the working face, and no the disk has been replaced.

A massive thanks for all your advice, the investigation goes on and I am pinning my hopes on it been a piecve of rubber that needs replacing.

If it's steering rack mounting bush and I can't find a generic solution I have seen some suggestion that someone sells a kit to make your own bush.

Will let you know what my mechanic says next Tuesday!

You may ask why I persist and don't get rid - well I really love the car and frankly I am stubborn

[john_y]

Hi all,

Tuesday's news is that we found the other steering rack 2 mountings and both of the 8 cm  hex bolts were also hard mounted - no bushes or rubber to be found.

They were tightened so hard it was almost impossible to unscrew - I am guessing that the previous owners mechanic knew there was a vibration steering rack mounting related problem and when they realised that Toyota didn't sell individual bushes and that a rack was going to cost more that £1000 to buy the part and fit they must of removed all trace of rubber and tighten back up with some much torque to avoid any vibration. I think the shear weight of the diesel engine over the front wheels and specifically the suspension and steering has caused at increasing speed a frequency resonance which progressively increases.

I would really appreciate any comments on my post up to this point!!!!

Anyway, my mechanic is going to look at 'disassembling' the rack and find out the bush size so that an 'exact' universal bush can be obtained from Powerflex or SuperPro.

 

Best wishes

[TomdeGuerre]

Kudos for your determination John, you and your mechanic have done really well and might have nailed it. If the rack was bolted down solid to the subframe then it would certainly transmit vibration, the only question in my mind is why does moving the steering wheel one way stop it and yet the other way makes no difference.Re the bushes, I’d advise against too hard a material, some of the front suspension replacement poly bushes are too hard and known to be noisy. Keep us posted, hope you get it!

I found a rack on fleabay which might be worth a look, if you scroll right down there's detailed pictures etc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-Auris-Steering-Rack-73010192-F800000922B-RHD-/121878049829

 

[john_y]

Hi Tom,

Yes, the pictures clearly show two of the mountings have bushes - my theory was 1 of the bushes was 'failing' hence the steering bias.

My mechanic wants to change both the wishbones but says he cannot detect any movement.

I sent the helpful link to my mechanic and I hope to bring you a positive Wednesday update.

Starting to pull my hair out now!

[john_y]

Hi,

Wednesday update, and what a nightmare day.

Conversations centred around - Does/ Does not the rack have bushes in the mountings - all the research up till yesterday indicated yes.

Today's findings, NO, 2 different sources, 1/ mechanic power steering reconditioning service, 2 / ACS Power Steering - No Bushes in mk1's approx. 2006-2009.

End of that wild goose chase _ I guess it's all part of the diagnosis said the Doctor..

Options left are, recondition the rack cost of £65 + removing and reinstalling labour costs, 2/ change both wishbones including bushing, ball joints £120, 3/ check again for uneven tyre wear in new front  tyres.

Think my mechanic is a bit miffed with me.

Any way, doing some research and think I am going to get the rack reconditioned as it seems Toyota have recalled other models, "Toyota GB said: ‘On certain Avensis, Corolla and Prius models (July 2001 to April 2009) there is a possibility of an issue with a component in the steering system, prompting a  knocking or rattling and possibly a reduction in steering response.
Components called ‘splines’ – a form of tubular locking device - which ‘connect the extension shaft to the steering gearbox may deform if the steering wheel is frequently and forcefully while  driving at slow speeds."

In plain English I interpret this as if your travelling slowly say 10 mph and turn hard into a junction the splines are dis-stressed and 'soft metal' wears over time.

Certainly a 2005 corolla/ verso t180 7 seater, and 2009 Avensis t180  were fitted with the 'heavy' 2.2 d4d diesel engine and covered by this recall.

Also, i read on Toyota Blog link:

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/recall-announced-for-toyota-avensis-toyota-corolla-and-toyota-prius

 

Quote

An Avensis owner commented "I have recently purchased a late 2006 Toyota Avensis 2 litre diesel and have noticed a noise coming from middle to right (drivers side) which seems to worsen when making a left turn or inreasing speed. The noise is more of a droning or whirring similar to a worn bearing (which it’s not). I have noticed some play in the right hand drive shaft, but unsure at this point whether it is anything to do with the steering recall and don’t know if there’s any relation to the two from what I read from Toyota as being the problem.
Any ideas anyone. Thanks"  

Toyota replied "Thanks for your post.   Sorry to hear about your Avensis and to ensure the correct diagnosis we would recommend that you ask your local Toyota dealer to have a look at this for you. If you need help to find your nearest dealer you can use the attached link. http://bit.ly/1epbPJ4. You can also check whether your car is invovled in a recall by entering your registration number here."

Owner stated " I took your advise and went to Burrows Toyota at Doncaster as part of a recall regarding a steering issue. They printed off a check form and noticed a slight bearing noise on OsF.  I have since stripped down and did find some play in bearing, but not too bad.  But I then checked the drive shaft and it was moving up and down,( which I would have expected the Toyota experts to have found as it was near the steering issue being checked) so I had no choice to get it replaced as well as bearing.  I believe an apprentice or someone without too much experience did the safety recall as it was a non earner, so was tasked to do this check, but not confirmed.   I’m not at all happy with this from Toyota because had I have not checked this out and replaced the driveshaft, it could have resulted in a very bad accident and injuries had the driveshaft snapped.

Could someone from Toyota respond?  Yours very Disalousioned"

Lastly owner commented " Thank you for your quick response David, I will take this up with Burrows as im furious that they haven’t picked up on this serious issue with the driveshaft, which I can now confirm was two different parts off two different ( earlier/late) models of Avensis that caused the problem. I would hassen to add though, it was probably not Toyota who did this previous repair/replacement, but cannot check this as I bought privately.  Saying that, It doesn’t instil any confidence in Toyota if they can let these type of problems go unnoticed and putting peoples lives in danger.  I did point out to the Technician (name withheld) when I received the recall check notification if there was any issues with the driveshaft, and he didnt seem to have any answers, but the sheet did state items OK (Green) for Driveshafts/Oil Leaks?

This is surely lulling people into a false sense of security having had this checked by professionals?"