Long Brake Pedal Travel.

[Mr.H]

Hi all. I have a problem with my brake pedal. The travel before the brakes actually work is very long. The brakes dont actually work until the brake pedal is nearly fully pressed. I have bled the system twice in the correct order and still no luck. I have also been told it is the brake master cylinder. So i have also changed this again myself and beld the system again and you guessed it, the brake pedal is exactly the same. Does anyone know what the problem is here please? Sorry if this has been brought up before.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello Harry - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

Thread moved to the Corolla club.

[oldcodger]

Did you fit a new or reconditioned master cylinder ? - if a scrappers one it could be as faulty as your old one.

Perhaps try clamping each flexible brake hoses in turn ( or even all together) , as near to the metal pipe as possible, to see if the hoses are ballooning or the fault is on one caliper.

How are you bleeding the brakes ? difficult on your own unless you use a bleeder kit.

Can recommend the Gunson one , £19 for Halfords , Screwfix etc, used one for many years/cars - so easy.

[Aidan-]

I take it that you know about working at car's when you have replaced a master cylinder yourself, so this might sound abit of a silly question but have you any leaks, and as Oldcodger as stated you could have been unlucky with a faulty second hand one. Oh one other thing have you replaced the brake fluid lately.

[Mr.H]

Thank you FROSTYBALLS. @ oldcodger, I bought a second hand one from eBay. So im guessing it was from a scrappers. Not sure as to whether to get my refund and return it. How would i be able to clamp the hoses and where from? Im hoping to remove the rear callipers and give the pistons a good clean as one of the rear callipers is sticking. I bled the brakes with another person by the normal procedure. @ Aidan-, Yes that's correct, i can do most works on a car, but when it comes to things like this i need help lol. no leaks as far as i know as a couple of weeks later of driving it, i checked the brake fluid reservoir and it was exactly the same. Yep, replaced the whole brake fluid with Dot4 three times.

[Aidan-]

Mr. H this is only me but there are certian things that i would not use second hand parts for and brakes is one of them. If i where you it would be returned asap and order new one.

[oldcodger]

As said, second hand brake parts are a real no no, your are putting lives at risk using suspect parts.

Only ever had my brakes fail once, its a really sickening feeling as I failed to stop at a t juction and went across the main flow of traffic ! fortunately missed everything and the handbrake eventually pulled me up.

You can get brake pipe clamps from any motoring shop / part supliers for a few pounds.

http://www.halfords.com/motoring-travel/tools-diy/tools-tool-kits/laser-brake-clamp

The idea is to place the clamp at the bodywork end of the flexible pipe so you isolate/remove that section of flexible brake pipe from the main circuit and possibly identify if a pipe is faulty.

Better to get or make 2 or 4 clamps in casemore than one pipe as gone.

Also test the brake pipes yourself, get someone to slowly push on and off the brake pedal while you watch and feel the flexible pipe, does it enlarge as the pressure is applied.

If non faulty, it strongly suggests the master cylinder, though with the second hand one giving the identical problem its a 50/50 call.

Removing the rear caliper pistons, if you have never done that then suggest you really avoid doing so.

Two reasons, its easy to mess up and you could loose both the braking circuit if they fail; plus you are adding another factor to your main problem.

Sort out the long travel first.

Are you aware of the " caliper slider pins " they are also more prone to seizing and need regular cleaning and greasing to move freely, sometimes a replacement kit is needed.

You want to try and get a back copy of July 2015 edition of Car Mechanics magazine as that had a large feature on repairing / refurbishing car brakes hydraulics, however be aware, its not for the inexperienced and any error can lead to failure at the wrong time as already metioned.

Assume you are using new Dot4 brake fluid; I say new as once opened and stored a bottle can absorbs water making it useless.

That gunsons brake bleeder is really worthwhile and I find more effective than pedal pushing.

The pic below shws another type of clamp at the caliper end, you want to clamp the other end.

[Aidan-]

As said, second hand brake parts are a real no no, your are putting lives at risk using suspect parts.

Only ever had my brakes fail once, its a really sickening feeling as I failed to stop at a t juction and went across the main flow of traffic ! fortunately missed everything and the handbrake eventually pulled me up.

I take it you needed a change of under ware after that one Oldcodger. :) Glad you weren't hurt it's always nice when you can tell the tale.

[alan333]

Hi all. I have a problem with my brake pedal. The travel before the brakes actually work is very long. The brakes dont actually work until the brake pedal is nearly fully pressed

What happens if you pump the brake pedal? Does the pedal "firm up", or does it still go down to the bottom before there's any pressure? Try the same with the engine off and see if it's any different. If it "firms up", does it hold there if you hold your foot on it, or does your foot go slowly to the floor?

[Mr.H]

@ oldcodger i have had a refund for the brake master cylinder and the seller told me to keep the item so thats a bonus on spending postage and sending it back :)

I have noticed that both my front caliper slider pins have seized from the bottom but im sure that has nothing to do with the brake pedal as they just hold the caliper in place when the brake is being pressed no? However i will sort out the travel first and then get to the callipers. thanks. I agree with you Aidan.

@Alan333, i have only bled the car while the engine is off. the brake pedal firms up really well, but by the time iv started it and drove it about its back to square one. while i was bleeding it, it was really firm even after bleeding each caliper.

[alan333]

So after driving about, what's the symptoms? Does the pedal firm up if pumped, does it hold firm, and is it any different with/without engine on?

[oldcodger]

Am I right in thinking this is a new car to you ?

It sounds like the brakes are in very bad condition if, as you already said, it has seized caliper pistons and sliders.

It makes me wonder how good the pads and discs are ?

You say the pedal is firm when bled but goes long when driving.

If you search the web on such symptoms you find there are already some posts with the same problem.

However seems the answer is not easy to find as a few different things can cause long travel.

One therory is that a seizing caliper piston is fine when bleeding but once moving, a worn/warped disc can push it back , so next time you need more fluid /longer travel to push it onto the pad.

After a firm bleeding, if you run the engine without moving, does the travel go long or only goes long once you actually drive around.

If you google on "brake pedal travel ok when bled but go long after driving ?" you will find plenty of similar posts.

However as said earlier, there are no safe shortcuts to brake repairs, to do take care and do things properly !

[Mr.H]

Just had the rear brake pads and disc brakes changed for a small cost and the problem still exists. Another thing which i totally forgot to say is if i am at a traffic light and rest my foot againts the brake pedal, the pedal moves down slowly about half an inch. @alan333 the pedal firms up only when bleeding, after that it doesnt become firm. Even when at a traffic light i pump the brake pedal a few times in which it firms up for a second and then goes down slowly as if its being bled.

@oldcodger, this is a new car to me. The travel only goes long after iv started it. Iv asked a few mechanics and they say its the brake master cylinder too. The thing is i can google that but i get a dozen different anwers which makes things more confusing. I could take it to my local dealer and see what thier verdict is.

[oldcodger]

if i am at a traffic light and rest my foot againts the brake pedal, the pedal moves down slowly about half an inch

Yes, thats normal on my car too, think its to do with the servo mechanism.

Do you mean you have had the rear pads and rear drum handbrake shoes replaced or the rear pads and rear discs ?

No previous mention of a problem with them , so why did you replace them ?

No mention about doing any testing of the brake rubbber hoses to see if they are ballooning, either by observation or clamping off ?

As to what you do, well all I could suggest is you work though the main parts starting with the master cylinder and fitting decent quality brand new parts, or letting a garage do the whole job for you; who as you say they sound as if they would start with the master cylinder.

You can get new master cylinders from Toyota or specialist places like here http://brakeparts.co.uk/#!/

Without being there to check and test the car and what you are doing its so difficult to give precise answers.

As said earlier if you do it yourself you it must be done properly or lives are at risk; afraid you cannot take shortcuts with brakes

[alan333]

@alan333 the pedal firms up only when bleeding, after that it doesnt become firm. Even when at a traffic light i pump the brake pedal a few times in which it firms up for a second and then goes down slowly as if its being bled.

After you've just bled the system and went for a run... Does the pedal firm up when you pump it with the engine off?

If it doesn't you've probably got a leak.

[oldcodger]

To follow on from Alans thoughts you can try this ytube to check if your brake servo is working ok.

(you have to have your sound at max with this vid )

Also several other similar vids out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogXIHfrhXsQ

[Mr.H]

@oldcodger i replaced them as the rear disc brakes were rusted from the outer edge quite bad. and the brake pads needed changing anyway. Just the brake pads and disc brakes were changed not the drums as i believe theyre are meant to last a life time plus i realsied this car has a drum brake system for its handbrake not a handbrake cable for the piston as my previous car. i have tested the rubber hoses and they seem to be fine too. I think it may be the master cylinder.

@alan333 after bleeding my car i reversed out of my drive and the pedal became soft again, i didn't even get a chance to take it for a full drive before it got soft lol. There cannot be a leak as the fluid reservoir was exactly in the same place as it was a month before, unless there is an air leak somewhere?

However i have booked in a free diagnostics check with the local Toyota dealership next Monday. I'm hoping i can get an answer from them too. to be honest i cant really complain as its free and then i will update you guys. I appreciate your help.

[Aidan-]

Mr H have i read your last reply right as in you said your Corolla SR has brake drums? my wife has the 2006 Corolla SR and her's are caliper's. And your problem sound very like air and the master cylinder. And you also need to free up anything that is seized before you can eliminate any other problems.

[Aidan-]

Forgot to say if you need anything brake related don't go second hand give Parts King a shout see what he can do.

[Mr.H]

Hi all. Apologies, for the reply. Toyota have said it is the brake master cylinder which needs replacing. @Aidan- mine have a caliper and drum brakes at the back. I have checked with other corollas and they seem to have the same braking system as mine (drum brake for the handbrake and calipers for footbrake.) i wonder why you only have calipers. How is the handbrake activated on your car, does it have a handbrake cable connected to the caliper like most VAG cars?