Rav4 Petrol Or Diesel?

[benny boy]

Hi All, Im thinking of buying a Rav 4, prob a 2010 model, i have seen a few reports of problems with the diesel engine ( in common with most,i might add ) and i wondered if these were rare or would i be better off getting a petrol?

[TomdeGuerre]

Save yourself a lot of grief, get a petrol

[Nat911t]

I'm in the same situation as the OP after looking at a T180, I've decided I want one but the diesels seem to be plagued with issues. I'll keep an eye out on this post for feedback

[philip42h]

OK, the 177bhp D-CAT diesel fitted to the T180 and SR180 made them a brilliant drive (I had an SR180 which never gave me any trouble at all) but equally they are the engines most likely to give issues and the 7 year good will warranty from Toyota is fast running out. What we really don't know is whether less than 10% of these cars suffered from the issue or more than 90% did (or indeed anywhere in between) - Toyota simply haven't shared the figures. What we do know is that those who've suffered tend to have complained about it (quite reasonably) and those that haven't have happily kept quite. So the issue is unlikely to be quite as bad as it appears from the postings!

If you can find a pre-2009 180 or indeed 140 diesel that has been fixed (i.e. had it's engine replaced already) you should be good to go. Otherwise your safest bet for a diesel is the 150 bhp version introduced in 2010 - this does not suffer from the specific issue that affected pre-2009 models.

[firemac]

Since 2002 we've had 3 x petrol 4.2 vvt-i automatics, 1 x D4D 4.2 manual and 1 x 4.3 DCAT automatic. Apart from a broken serpentine belt on one at 80k miles and 9 years and a failed cat (which would have been a warranty claim if the dealer hadn't screwed up), we've not had a moment's trouble with any of them. The petrol autos in particular are sublime drivetrains IMHO.

The diesel issues that are referred to affected pre-2009 cars and I'm not aware of any later cars having any problem. You can always check a pre-09 car you're looking at with any Toyota dealer who can tell you whether it has had the upgraded engine fitted under the goodwill arrangement.

[benny boy]

OK, the 177bhp D-CAT diesel fitted to the T180 and SR180 made them a brilliant drive (I had an SR180 which never gave me any trouble at all) but equally they are the engines most likely to give issues and the 7 year good will warranty from Toyota is fast running out. What we really don't know is whether less than 10% of these cars suffered from the issue or more than 90% did (or indeed anywhere in between) - Toyota simply haven't shared the figures. What we do know is that those who've suffered tend to have complained about it (quite reasonably) and those that haven't have happily kept quite. So the issue is unlikely to be quite as bad as it appears from the postings!

If you can find a pre-2009 180 or indeed 140 diesel that has been fixed (i.e. had it's engine replaced already) you should be good to go. Otherwise your safest bet for a diesel is the 150 bhp version introduced in 2010 - this does not suffer from the specific issue that affected pre-2009 models.

Thanks for your reply. To be clear, the 150 bhp diesel engines from around 2010 dont have the EGR or DPF Issues? Are there any known issues with this engine?. I do appreciate people who take the time to reply and share their knowlwdge with us newbie's!

[TomdeGuerre]

Benny, my reply might have been tongue in cheek bt it certainly wasn't facetious. I'm an ex-diesel mechanic, having worked both in the private garage sector and over on the dark side the road haulage industry so i certainly understand exactly how a diesel engine works. I've never owned a RAV4 but i've owned several Jeeps including the 4 litre straight 6 and the V8 petrol engined ones as well as the 3.1 and the 2.7 turbo diesels.

I took it you had already looked at he performance figures and determined that the petrol engine version would be powerful enough for your needs. Actually petrol engines are, in a like for like comparison, more powerful than the diesels. Where the diesel excels is the rate at which they develpo their power (ie the amount of torque). BHP determines how fast you reach a stationary or slower moving object. Torque determines how far along the road you can shove said object.

I still say that you're more likely to have ongoing maintenance issues with turbo diesels than with a normally aspirated petrol engine.

[NORTHERN_LAD]

If you can find a 59 plate 150bhp pre facelift model it won't have a dpf at all. Don't know how many are out their but I have one and it's great.

Unfortunately they only came with a 3 year warranty where as the facelift models have a 5 year warranty.

Keith

[philip42h]

OK, the 177bhp D-CAT diesel fitted to the T180 and SR180 made them a brilliant drive (I had an SR180 which never gave me any trouble at all) but equally they are the engines most likely to give issues and the 7 year good will warranty from Toyota is fast running out. What we really don't know is whether less than 10% of these cars suffered from the issue or more than 90% did (or indeed anywhere in between) - Toyota simply haven't shared the figures. What we do know is that those who've suffered tend to have complained about it (quite reasonably) and those that haven't have happily kept quite. So the issue is unlikely to be quite as bad as it appears from the postings!

If you can find a pre-2009 180 or indeed 140 diesel that has been fixed (i.e. had it's engine replaced already) you should be good to go. Otherwise your safest bet for a diesel is the 150 bhp version introduced in 2010 - this does not suffer from the specific issue that affected pre-2009 models.

Thanks for your reply. To be clear, the 150 bhp diesel engines from around 2010 dont have the EGR or DPF Issues? Are there any known issues with this engine?. I do appreciate people who take the time to reply and share their knowlwdge with us newbie's!

There's an issue discussed in this thread that could result in engine failure and replacement which is a reason to be cautious about the pre-2009 D4D and D-CAT diesels. Replacing an engine is a big issue.This problem is resolved in the 150 bhp version from around 2010 and I know of no significant issues with this engine (i.e. the one I have!).

All modern diesels are plagued by emission control features such as EGR and DPF. They benefit from higher mileages and longer runs and in that mode are generally trouble free. But they don't take kindly to shorter runs and stop-start motoring [or cheap diesel], so if your motoring is of that style you may well be better off with a petrol engine though having to occasionally clean out an EGR isn't an end of world issue now is it?

[RavUser]

If you work on this theory, I don't think you could go far wrong:

Petrol is for Cars !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Diesel is for Central heating systems in your home !!!!!!!!!!

Working on this theory, I have never had any problems that the diesel engine have.

They are too complicated for what they are and too hyped up in my opinion.

There is a company out there that I am sure would agree with this in hindsight.

I think the name is VW-Audi group, or something like that ...............

[Mike169]

Hi Stephen, will the proposed car be for 'the school run' type of thing, short journeys or more so longer journeys at closer to the max legal speed? If mostly used for local runs buy a petrol but if used for longer runs of 30 mins plus at a decent speed then go for a post 2009/10 150 D Cat diesel version. My personal preference an auto gearbox is the better option as the manuals with the dual mass clutch seem to be problematic.

Regards.

[152bobby]

With all the hype in the news about diesels, whether it be true or not (no smoke with fire !!) and the issue I had recently with my DPF, I certainly will not be buying another diesel car, no matter what make it is.

Stick to petrol.

[slowdahhn!]

Gotta be petrol these days. Modern diesels are so highly strung computer controlled emission focused bits of kit that they invariably suffer a case of the squits.

The process of squeezing diesel until goes bang hasn't changed but the delivery/ air mix/ emission control and monitoring has made them susceptible to failure @ ££££' when they do

Every company car I've had over the last 15 years was a diesel and everyone of them failed expensively regardless of make in the engine fuel emissions dept., not so bad when you don't own it and only have to pick up the phone for someone else to sort.

Job change last year which now involves commute via train and my own car is a petrol regardless of the annual mileage for me

[Mike169]

Hi Bobby, hope you are ok mate. Can I ask what problems you have had with your DPF, what were the symptoms and how you resolved it? I regularly log into this site but must of missed your posts about your valve.

Regards, Mike.

[152bobby]

About 2 months ago my wife was driving to Eastbourne and the dash lit up like a Christmas tree and the car was performing badly, but just about driveable.

AA guy diagnosed a blocked DPF and tried to do a forced regen with no luck.

Managed to drive the car slowly back to Wokingham and took the car to Mr T who confirmed that it was indeed a DPF issue. They informed me that it was not covered under the Toyota Warranty.

They drove it all the way to Newbury and back to Wokingham in 3rd gear keeping the revs and speed at a specific level, just as they almost got back to Reading the forced regen finally worked and the car has been fine ever since.

Mr T only charged me 1 hours labour although they spent close to 3 hours on it and have since then offered a refund on the one hours work which I gladly accepted...please note that this sort of service from a Mr T is dealer specific and they are all different.

Whilst all this was going on, I contacted Toyota GB with the full assistance and back up of MR T in Reading.

I informed Toyota GB that how is a driver to know when a Regen is in process or the car has a DPF issue when there is not a specific warning light in my car (a 2011 Rav SR).

They knew that I had a valid point and they gave it to me in writing that the DPF will be covered if it is due to a mechanical or electrical fault.....what else can it be !!!!

If the forced regen did not work, I would have had a expensive bill and a very hard and long argument with Toyota GB !!

I believe that I am the only person (so far) that has had a DPF issue in my particular year and model.

Anyway, it all turned out good for me, but I had a few days of worry.

Toyota GB know that this is a issue, especially when the car is not fitted with any warning of anything to do with a DPF.

I cannot help worrying when I drive the car that this could happen again, both myself and wife have lost a bit of faith in this car and as mentioned before WILL BE MY LAST DIESEL car.

Hope this helps answer your question.

[slowdahhn!]

You've hit a nail on the head Bob re DPF.

The truth is that if a modern diesel is not driven sufficiently hot/hard/fast it will soot and block it's DPF which again throws all sorts of tantrums with the engine management.

Over the years of company diesels the failures from memory were

Ford Mondeo=DPF fail/ variable vane turbo fail

BMW 3 series= Injector failures/Turbo seal fail/Injector pump fail

Audi A4= DPF fail/ Injector pump fail

LR Discovery=FAIL in all depts.!

LR Freelander gen 4 = Turbo fail/Fuel rail fail/ Boost sensor fail

VW Passat 2013=Injector fail due to not sealing with cylinder head resulting in blow by and a black soot and carbon mass seizing the thing into place.

And every one the oil was as black as a coal miners hat even just after service so god knows what gunk was accumulating in the engine away from view for some poor soul to deal with after their company life of being blasted up and down the motorways was over.

[Nat911t]

I have to take my hat off to you guys for the honest appraisal and feedback Much appreciated from my point of view

[benny boy]

Thanks everyone, looks like petrol for me. Are there any diesel supporters out there?

[firemac]

Thanks everyone, looks like petrol for me. Are there any diesel supporters out there?

I've had 2 x diesel RAVs, 2 x diesel Land Cruisers, a Saab 9-5 diesel and a BMW 5 series diesel. No problems with any of them. However as a poster above has said, diesels were never designed for what they're being used for now; they were originally designed to be a robust power plant that could run on low quality fuel (such as vegetable matter) but keep going for years with minimal maintenance. They were great for agricultural applications like tractors, balers, combine harvesters, remote generators, etc. To function as a performance power plant and meet all the enviro obligations, they need so much sophisticated add-ons that the engines are now becoming increasingly problematic and therefore costly to run.

On the other hand, we are now seeing the sort of high performance, low emission petrol engines that we could have had 25 years ago if the powers that be (UK & EU) had gone for lean burn technology instead of following the US's blind faith in downstream catalysers. The VW fiasco has simply hastened the demise of diesel as a credible fuel for road cars; it won't disappear overnight but sales of diesel cars will start to decline and petrol models will be more prevalent in manufacturers' line-ups.

[Mike169]

Hi All, so apart from a 60 mile drive in 3rd gear how do you do a forced DPF REGEN on a diesel D Cat or even how do you know when your car is doing it for itself, does a light come on the dashboard or something?

[Konrad C]

Some manufacturers have not learned much about adding too much to engines. Even petrol engines are getting complicated, with turbos and electronic setups. Think Ford Ecoboost! Small 3 cylinder engines with a turbo. Nice for the first 5 years, then depending on how they are used and serviced, later life reliability could be an issue. Toyotas valvematic engines seems fine, and Mazda with the SkyActiv petrol engine so far seems okay. Honda got it right with their 1.8 engine. Their 2.2 diesel is only fitted in the larger cars due to no room for the DPF in the Civic.

With emissions now looking at NOx as being more concern than CO emissions, adding the VW/Audi scandal. I see a reverse on the long term value of diesel cars. That is why I have a petrol Avensis.

[TomdeGuerre]

Some manufacturers have not learned much about adding too much to engines. Even petrol engines are getting complicated, with turbos and electronic setups. Think Ford Ecoboost! Small 3 cylinder engines with a turbo. Nice for the first 5 years, then depending on how they are used and serviced, later life reliability could be an issue. Toyotas valvematic engines seems fine, and Mazda with the SkyActiv petrol engine so far seems okay. Honda got it right with their 1.8 engine. Their 2.2 diesel is only fitted in the larger cars due to no room for the DPF in the Civic.

With emissions now looking at NOx as being more concern than CO emissions, adding the VW/Audi scandal. I see a reverse on the long term value of diesel cars. That is why I have a petrol Avensis.

Well you're right there, Konrad and even though not RAV4's, I've been running Toyota petrol VVT petrol engines in various forms and never had any trouble. Does my car (or indeed any of them) have an Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve? Possibly so but in 11 years I've never had any trouble or had any reason to go looking for it or at it. Couldn't agree more about this rubbish idea of having very small petrol engines with turbos or superchargers, they're going to mean trouble. That's why I'm so mightily ticked off about Toyota phasing out their 1.6 engines in the Auris.

btw it might be my imagination but i think 2nd hand petrol engined vehicles prices are on the way up although i don't see the diesels coming down any.

[Konrad C]

And to add to the argument, another turbo failure on an Avensis diesel: http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/169904-replacement-turbo-recommendatios/

I still have my old Mk1 1998 leanburn. Yes it has it's wear and tear, but it is still going for now.

Small engine doing a big engines work to meet the emissions. There is less less carbon and soot build up from petrol engines, compared to diesel engines.

EGRs need to be cleaned more frequently.

Tom, VVTI engines do not have do not have EGR valves. One less problem.