Toyota Safety Sense

[estate]

Thanks for the excellent explanation of the different systems Lee.

I've decided that I'm not going to cancel the new Avensis, that I take delivery off in a fortnight's time, believing that the problem isn't too difficult for Toyota's Technical Team to sort out. it's just a shame that so many customers feel let down by Toyota's apparent lack of concern and miss-information given out by both Toyota and thier dealerships, they need to be more upfront about the problems. It may take legal action and bad publicity for them to realise this. Whoever is responsible for this farce needs to be shown the door, sharpish.

[Kitkat-HK]

Hi guys 

I recently jumped to see all those comments about the TSS on Yaris pages. 

I got the Verso TSS which occasionally I came with those problems that got mention on this topic , such as when sun shining the tss will stop working and warning sign keep flashing and will happen when the windscreen misted ! 

By reading most of the comments here seen these an update that the dealer should point out to fix this problem. 

Can anyone explain it more clearly to me so before I head my way to the dealer I know where I stand and what sort of thing they should do for me to fix this tss problem .

 

with lots of thanks in advance 

 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

From your profile, presumably you haven't got a 2007 Verso. 

Please update.

[Kitkat-HK]

Hi frostyballs 

sorry forgot to update my profile . 

Its the 1.6 d design tss 2016 model if this help 

 

thanks 

[Kitkat-HK]

Just updated my profile . With thanks 

[Martin23]

On 04/02/2017 at 8:53 PM, estate said:

I've decided that I'm not going to cancel the new Avensis

I think you're wrong - I would cancel (although you'd probably lose your deposit). 

I had all the alerts again last night on both 7 mile journies to and from a restuarant and in exactly the same geographic location 500 yards from a large wind turbine (!??) at between 45 and 90 degrees to the direction of travel

Assuming you can't afford to lose your deposit I strongly suggest that you tell them in writing something like this:  I am aware that many Toyota drivers having vehicles equipped with the TSSc system are complaining of serious and continuing problems with this system displaying warnings and disabling the forward-facing safety systems.  I have not been told of any problem with the TSS system by the dealership.  I have an expectation that my new Toyota Avensis the will have a TSS system that works in all conditions (except possibly very heavy snow and very thick fog) and that does not suffer from condensation or any other issues (such as low sun in front of the vehicle) leading to the car's computer systems to disable the TSS system (including auto high beam) and to display warnings that the TSS system is inoperable.  In that way you set the scene for any possible rejection of the vehicle within the first six months of ownership.  

I'm just about to email my dealer asking for an exceptionally large discount on a new Prius or DCT both of which have the radar version of TSS - and having driven a Prius for 2 weeks in all conditions I know they are not affected by this issue.  I'm lucky to have had a small windfall and be able to stand a loss of "quite a few £k" but this problem is not showing any signs of being fixable by Toyota in the short term and I do believe it will go on the back burner once the warmer Spring weather arrives.  If they decline then I'll be trading it in against a Kia Niro Hybrid or similar thet either doesn't have a TSS-alike system or has the one using radar.

It's worth noting that all of these systems - fitted to many different marques - are designed and manufactured by the ?German? company "Continental" so it will be interesting to see which version Kia and others have chosen to fit, assuming they'ere prepared to say.

[Heidfirst]

11 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

It's worth noting that all of these systems - fitted to many different marques - are designed and manufactured by the ?German? company "Continental" so it will be interesting to see which version Kia and others have chosen to fit, assuming they'ere prepared to say.

Toyota was the launch customer (aka guinea pig) for this particular system which means that they & their customers are going to come across the problems first. No doubt Continental will learn from this & adapt/modify/upgrade versions of this system for other customers.

[estate]

12 hours ago, Martin23 said:

I think you're wrong - I would cancel (although you'd probably lose your deposit). 

Thanks for your comments Martin.

Below is the reply I received from Toyota GB, when I requested information on the current problems with TSS on the Avensis. I'm aware, that if there is any unresolved problems with the TSS system, it will be the dealership that I will be dealing with and not Toyota GB, but I just wanted their opinion on it.

"The latest factory software updates for the TSS system have been implemented on all vehicles produced since November 2016. Depending on when your vehicle was produced will determine if you have the latest software on your vehicle. 

The TSS system is undergoing constant improvements. Your vehicle will have received the highest level of the TSS system available at the time it was produced. Enhancements to the TSS system have been incorporated into current production vehicles but as we don't know when your vehicle was produced we can't confirm your vehicle has the very latest enhancements and software. Please understand that your Centre is there to help you with any problems with the system and they can update the system (if required) should you experience issues. Your Centre will be able to upgrade to the current software (if available) on your vehicle.

Please remember that there are limitations to the operation of the TSS system under certain conditions as clearly described in the Owner's Manual"

[Makokk]

The only thing they have probably upgraded is the owner's manual, to say that the TSS only works on optimum weather conditions. Tough luck we don't get the owner's manual until after we purchace the vehicle. Hence the "unrealistic" expectations.

[FROSTYBALLS]

10 minutes ago, Makokk said:

The only thing they have probably upgraded is the owner's manual, to say that the TSS only works on optimum weather conditions. Tough luck we don't get the owner's manual until after we purchace the vehicle. Hence the "unrealistic" expectations.

One can download the owners manual from Toyota's website at any time - whether that is before purchase, after purchase or for any reason.

[cobh18]

 My pdf version has 553 pages. A prospective purchaser of a vehicle equipped with TSS is advised to have a crystal ball, to detect TSS foul-ups!  

[FROSTYBALLS]

14 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

 My pdf version has 553 pages. A prospective purchaser of a vehicle equipped with TSS is advised to have a crystal ball, to detect TSS foul-ups!  

Quite possibly, but there is such a thing as an index which would enable one to tune in the crystal ball to view the specific subject one wants to view.

[Martin23]

8 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

would enable one to tune in the crystal ball to view the specific subject one wants to view.

It would, but only if one were aware that there was a particular subject worthy of one's attention such as TSS.  It so happens that Frank is aware because of this forum. 

But it somewhat beggars belief that  "the average purchaser" should be expected to trawl through the entire manual prior to purchase in an attempt to discover possible limitations.  Furthermore, do the limitations include bright sunshine; rain or cold dark nights?  Because those seem to be the main causes of the problem.  If so, what it would suggest is that TSS is likely to be disabled for much of the Autumn, Winter and early Spring......

[FROSTYBALLS]

..... but by using the index to the owners manual one wouldn't have to trawl through the entire manual. It isn't rocket science.

[Martin23]

1 minute ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

It isn't rocket science.

It is if you don't know what you're looking for, I suspect you'd have to read every page.  All the index will say is "driving"; "controls"; "instruments" - but unless you already know there's a problem with something specific then you have to read everything.

[FROSTYBALLS]

If one only uses the Table of Contents at the front of the owners manual, then one could have difficulty. However, those who are more accustomed to reference publications will be aware that there is an Alphabetical Index towards the rear of the owners manual, and it was this index I was referring to.  There is an Alphabetical Index towards the rear of every full Toyota owners manual.

In fact with all of the new cars we've bought (19 so far), from a variety of manufacturers (Nissan, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai and Toyota), every one of the owners manuals have had a Table of Contents at the front and an Alphabetical Index towards the rear.

That is why using an owners manual isn't rocket science.

[cobh18]

The method of search chosen isn't really the point.  You'd need prior warning of an issue with TSS to want to delve into the detail.  The online manual search works well, but unlikely to do that before purchase if the buyer was unaware of a problem that Toyota were still struggling to resolve?  

[Martin23]

9 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

but unlikely to do that before purchase if the buyer was unaware of a problem that Toyota were still struggling to resolve

My point exactly.  I imagine all of us knows what is and how to use a table of contents and an index

 

To Mike: you're missing the point !!!! You don't know what you don't know about prospective issues.  An index is only of any use whatsoever if you already know what you're looking for......

[Makokk]

frostyballs we can argue over this until the end of time. The reality is they failed to mention any limitations when they were selling this to me (it was an added extra and not fitted as standard when I purchased my car). So in their entie process of "explaining" this system as I was not aware of it before and practically selling it to me they never once mentioned any limitations or concerns or restrictions. I am confident that the average person would consider this misleading. They can argue that it is in the manual but they did not supply a manual for me to look at before my purchase and therefore I have no responsibility to be aware of any of these "restrictions" out of my own accord. 

 

Whatever we say it makes little difference. We are the ones that got f'd up and are stuck with an unreliable system. If anyone has placed an order for a ne vehicle I would contact the obundsman now and tell them in writing or discussing my concerns before picking up the vehicle and see if there is any way to get out of it under these circumstances or whether they would be prepared to back you up in the event of problems, whatever they can do.. it may not mean anything in the end but it might be worth reporting that you are aware of the issues and you wouldn't be happy to receive a vehicle with a faulty system or a system with "limited" functionality as it was not sold to you as such..

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 hours ago, Makokk said:

The only thing they have probably upgraded is the owner's manual, to say that the TSS only works on optimum weather conditions. Tough luck we don't get the owner's manual until after we purchace the vehicle. Hence the "unrealistic" expectations.

 

22 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

You'd need prior warning of an issue with TSS to want to delve into the detail.  The online manual search works well, but unlikely to do that before purchase if the buyer was unaware of a problem that Toyota were still struggling to resolve?  

No I'm NOT missing the point.

One doesn't need prior notice of an issue.

Some owners will access the owners manual before purchase to see how systems operate and whether there are any known operational limitations. To say that owners cannot access the owners manual until after purchase is plainly incorrect. They can and they do.

We've had members on these forums who have asked how they can access owners manuals or accessory manuals in order to acquire knowledge of the various features of their new vehicle.

Obviously any issues that have occur after the owners manual has been published won't be included until the manual gets revised, and the description of how a system operates gets updated. 

[Makokk]

It is irrelevant. It is very clear that they did not expect issues to the severity most people have received them. My sensors are non functional 3/4 of the time for apprx 5 months of the year. In my mind something is not right and the fact that they expect me to foot the bill is rdiculousl they should compensate for failing to reach the standards they sold it under. Is adverse whether 8C with clear blue skies? If not why the hell is ot not working?!

they should be more specific and make sure you understand what you're buying. It is meant ot be a safety system! Not for entertainment or comfort! Most people would expect it to work more that it actually does! They are inexcusable.

a doctor/dentist can't sell you/provide you any treatment without explaining expectations, pros and cons and making sure you understand. Hence the legal liability when they are proven to have failed to do so. Why should they feel that they are above that common courtesy?

[Makokk]

And at the end of the day, even if they didn't know what the problems were why are they not atleast compensating customers with issues as none of the "fixes" so far have actually fixed anything!

[FROSTYBALLS]

Any legal liability lies with the dealer together with any requirement to explain systems. That is whom your contract is with, not the manufacturer.

[Makokk]

Dealers and manufacturers can and have come into agreements regarding faulty/dangerous products. They can recall, replace, remove, compensate customers if they wish to. Clearly the dealer is only selling what the manufacturer is making. But they are still selling a system that is clearly not working properly and no one seems to care about the customer. The manufacturer has yet to make much progress with fixing the problems at least with the vehicles that already have the system amd the dealer is clearly still selling it without warning the customer. They can't claim ignorance forever and assume the customer "should find out on their own before purchasing" for long.. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Obviously Toyota and presumably the system manufacturer, Continental, are looking at the issues. Which is why they've already made some, so far unsuccessful, attempts to solve the issues. TSS probably won't be subject to an official recall as it doesn't affect the primary safety of the vehicle (ie. doesn't make the vehicle unsafe to drive). Any updates to the system will probably continue to be done via either the Toyota Service Bulletin system, or via a voluntary customer service campaign.

Despite the dealer only selling what the manufacturer makes, one's contract is still with the dealer, so under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, it is the dealer who is liable.