Toyota Safety Sense

[cobh18]

Don't forget that under S3 of the Consumer Protection Act 1987, the maker is also liable if damage is caused.  Product Liability legislation applies.

As to affecting the primary safety of the vehicle, the possibility exists of the TSS initiating emergency breaking as a result of a system failure. There are 16 conditions listed under which the PCS system could operate automatically (page 237) "even if there is no possibility of a collision" ( phrase taken from the manual p.237).

A collision caused by emergency braking for spurious reasons would be regrettable. 

In addition driver distraction is a fact, as the TSS error messages occur unexpectedly and are persistent.

"Driver distraction: Always give your full attention to driving. Anything that distracts the driver, such as adjusting controls, talking on a cellular phone or reading can result in a collision with resulting death or serious injury to you, your occupants or others. " The manual, page 10.

I'm not sure that Toyota have got their act together on this. 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

2 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

Don't forget that under S3 of the Consumer Protection Act 1987, the maker is also liable if damage is caused.  Product Liability legislation appliesi

Which would apply as and when damage is caused - which hasn't occurred at the present time.

So legal redress comes back to the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

[cobh18]

Not so far as is known, but it would be prudent to take preventive measures beforehand. The longer this farce continues the greater the risk.

[FROSTYBALLS]

But for an owner, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 offers the most applicable redress at present

[Martin23]

8 hours ago, cobh18 said:

In addition driver distraction is a fact, as the TSS error messages occur unexpectedly and are persistent

My point all along ....

[cobh18]

Update following dealer visit (RRG Macclesfield) on 7 February for modifications. They have installed a heater to the TSS module and reflashed the ECU. Since then there have been two trips to Manchester and return via A34 as well as minor shopping. No recurrence of issues in conditions that seemed to trigger the error messages before: i.e. slow moving traffic, and below zero C  with fog on the first trip over the Cat. Today checked the area of windscreen above the module (infra red thermometer) and noticed peak of 22C in an ambient of 9C. So, there is a heater in there! Will send feedback to Head of Quality for Toyota GB following another trip this week, which is likely to be in rain or snow.  

[Martin23]

3 hours ago, cobh18 said:

No recurrence of issues in conditions that seemed to trigger the error messages before

That's really good to hear, John. 

In my case I have identified a possible trigger for my alerts and its not condensation!!

In a significant development having reviewed my log and discarded two events where I felt it was actually reasonable for the TSS to disconnect (thick fog and leaving the hatch & 1 door open for 10 minutes in heavy rain) I've realised that:

a) The events only happen at night and

b) 90% happen on the same 200 yards stretch of road near where I live - and regardless of how far I am into the journey, it could be 3 miles, 8 miles or 20 miles - and regardless of direction of travel....

This is a small country lane.  The nearest object (that I can see) that could in any way affect my car (?!) is 300 yards away from this point, almost line ahead / astern when the system triggers -  and it's a large wind turbine.

Once I suspected this I took great care* to note the location of the alert the next time I drove along this road

(* instead of swearing; cussing; damning Toyota to automotive hell and stopping to take a movie of the instrument panel).

Sure enough on the return journey after 5 miles at night, 9c, dry (no rain for days), within the 200 yards stretch - the alerts came on.  Why they don't happen during daylight is a mystery and of course one that immediately casts suspicion on my conclusion - but having 90% of all the events I've ever experienced is - I feel - significant. 

I've told Greg Culshaw and given him the exact location of the turbine which has been passed to Toyota engineering.  If that's not the cause then I'm stumped!

 

 

[cobh18]

I'll have to look out for turbines, which reminds me that the flight path for Manchester airport crosses the path of the A34. However, flights of fancy apart, the technician who fitted the mod thought that a trigger for the error might have been the retro-reflective surfaces of the serried ranks of cones at the road works. Daylight for me usually, but not impossible. Nothing like field testing is there!

[Kitkat-HK]

Hi guys 

I just went into my Toyota dealer and book it in to have my TSS systems update as what mention above , such as condensation problem! 

I asked the service guy there it's must be under warranty and she replied with not sure until the technician check it up !! 

I thought it's must be under the car warranty coz it's the manufacturer fault on the tss. 

Did you guys had it done free of charge ? 

 

With thanks 

[FROSTYBALLS]

If it needs the update, it will be updated under warranty

[cobh18]

FOC, but they wanted to check first for the issues experienced and the conditions they occurred in,  and look for error codes.  

[Martin23]

On 22/02/2017 at 3:06 PM, cobh18 said:

look for error codes

Bizzarely, John, none of the alerts generates an error code and they are teated by the TSS system as "Driver information". 

On day 1 of my ownership last March I had an actual warning to take my car to the dealership due to a communication fault - and there was, the camera's interface was faulty.  So they could tell me a whole rannge of things from the car's computer - date, time, inside / outside temp, speed. 

You'd have thought that - 10 months later, armed with the knowledge all these incidents were ocurring and the lack of data about each one - that Mr Toyota would have made a small  software change to treat every alert as one that should be recorded in the same was as faults.  But I guess that's too simple for the world's largest carmaker.

[Makokk]

They wouldn't otherwise there would be indisputable evidence of all the problems and their frequency

[Devon Aygo]

19 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

Bizzarely, John, none of the alerts generates an error code and they are teated by the TSS system as "Driver information". 

On day 1 of my ownership last March I had an actual warning to take my car to the dealership due to a communication fault - and there was, the camera's interface was faulty.  So they could tell me a whole rannge of things from the car's computer - date, time, inside / outside temp, speed. 

You'd have thought that - 10 months later, armed with the knowledge all these incidents were ocurring and the lack of data about each one - that Mr Toyota would have made a small  software change to treat every alert as one that should be recorded in the same was as faults.  But I guess that's too simple for the world's largest carmaker.

The problem is that the system is not fault, as you have experienced when there is a fault it keeps a log of what was detected and under what circumstances.

When the advisory message appears about about clearing the windscreen all the car can tell is that the forward facing camera/lasers cannot see , it can't tell why as it would require a whole array of sensors/detectors to determine if the cause was reflections, headlights, streetlights, sunlight, dirt, ice snow etc

[cobh18]

My vehicle apparently did not keep any record of any fault, despite a virtual blizzard of error messages when there were no obvious triggers.  The technician did say that at the first attempt to fault find, that there was a message about misalignment. This was corrected, but the error messages continued. Until the recent heater install and software tweak. I think it must be some sort of internal software fault, in the absence of an overt trigger such as a blockage of line of sight. BTW, the technician said there were over 20 "computers" in the system. No wonder they see ghosts! 

[Martin23]

6 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

it would require a whole array of sensors/detectors to determine

At the mo Toyota's prpblem is they don't have the data to see what's going on when the alert triggers, Lee.  I'm fairly sure it would help if they knew time of day, inside/outside temp, etc. which are all things the various computers are monitoring via the standard sensors... at least with that data they would be in with a chance of assessing what's up.  As it is, its guesswork or looking at the logs a few of us have been keeping.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Auto Express have featured the Terry Parrott's query on TSS in this week's magazine (w/c 1st March). However, instead of being featured in their Watchdog section, it is in the much smaller 'Got any car queries' section towards the back.

The Auto Express answer is:

"We spoke to Toyota UK, which told us this issue could be due to recent bouts of cold weather. If frost is covering any parts of the sensors on the windscreen, the system will stop working. Try giving the glass a clean before setting off."

[estate]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Auto Express have featured the Terry Parrott's query on TSS in this week's magazine (w/c 1st March). However, instead of being featured in their Watchdog section, it is in the much smaller 'Got any car queries' section towards the back.

The Auto Express answer is:

"We spoke to Toyota UK, which told us this issue could be due to recent bouts of cold weather. If frost is covering any parts of the sensors on the windscreen, the system will stop working. Try giving the glass a clean before setting off."

I think Terry has already proven that cleaning the glass doesn’t cure the problem he has with the TSS, so don’t think he will too pleased with the response.

I can add any weight to highlighting his problem, as the TSS on my Avensis has worked as advertised, since I took delivery of the car two weeks ago.

[Swede_mike]

3 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Auto Express have featured the Terry Parrott's query on TSS in this week's magazine (w/c 1st March). However, instead of being featured in their Watchdog section, it is in the much smaller 'Got any car queries' section towards the back.

The Auto Express answer is:

"We spoke to Toyota UK, which told us this issue could be due to recent bouts of cold weather. If frost is covering any parts of the sensors on the windscreen, the system will stop working. Try giving the glass a clean before setting off."

What a bull**** answer!

Toyota doesn't want customers anymore, do what I did, change the car, never ever buyimg a Toyota again (have bought 8 new Toyota's in my life).

[Martin23]

11 minutes ago, Swede_mike said:

never ever buyimg a Toyota again

Actually, I will.  Aside from this issue they make fantastically reliable motors and are still one of the few manufacturers to offer plain vanilla petrol engines (without turbos & superchargers), so if you live in or drive in a city then those are the only kind of cars you be able to afford to drive over the coming years.  I just won't buy one with LIDAR, that's all. 

So, it'll be a Prius or a C-HR.  I had a Prius on loan for 2 weeks and apart from being a little smaller in the back than my Avensis and a little lower it was fine.  Fitting higher profile tyres would also improve the ride, but other than that both my wife and I enjoyed driving it and we got mid-70s mpg on a run both ways from Somerset to Liverpool through some darstardly heavy traffic.  I'm going to test drive a C-HR in a few weeks and am negotiating with my dealer for a really good deal on either (apparently the Land Cruiser also uses RADAR for its TSS but ... only in my dreams could I begin to afford one).

[Makokk]

does anyone has the link for it? I'll gladly send them photos of my clear windshield and fogged up sensor unit at 11C. 

[Swede_mike]

This of mine after the latest "fix", waterfall inside and dry outside this day.

well it worked ok after that fix but not 100%

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

44 minutes ago, Swede_mike said:

What a bull**** answer!

Toyota doesn't want customers anymore, do what I did, change the car, never ever buyimg a Toyota again (have bought 8 new Toyota's in my life).

Bear in mind the above reply is Auto Express's answer.

[Swede_mike]

11 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Bear in mind the above reply is Auto Express's answer.

No they had spoken with Toyota, read again.

"We spoke to Toyota UK, which told us this issue could be due to recent bouts of cold weather. If frost is covering any parts of the sensors on the windscreen, the system will stop working. Try giving the glass a clean before setting off."

 

[estate]

25 minutes ago, Makokk said:

does anyone has the link for it? I'll gladly send them photos of my clear windshield and fogged up sensor unit at 11C. 

Can't help with the link to the article but you can try thier contacts here:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/contact-us