Toyota Safety Sense

[timspud]

34 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

the pre-collision system doesn't just use a camera & from what you have earlier said on at least one occasion may have saved you from being in an accident.

It is quite possible that whilst e.g. the auto headlights function may not be working properly that other parts of the system (e.g. pre-collision) are.

 

The car will still be drivable - after all we have coped without similar for over 100 years.

Driveble yes, as specified no (Sale of Goods act!)

It is specified as part of the car and you pay extra for it , then you would expect it to work. Don't claim it can do something if it can't and if it disables other features then it is a hazard

[Makokk]

But that's the whole point why I asked for it to be installed. It's no good for me if it's not working. I drove a 6 hour journey last week and it was off for the vast majority of the journey. Apart from being initially evening and eventually night, it was apprx 10 C and no fog or condensation inside the car itself. If I had a collision and the safety system failed to kick in to prevent or reduce the impact then where does Toyota stand considering they have been fobbing me off for a year now and there has been no real solution to my problem. They should either compensate me for putting a faulty system in my car or replace the vehicle/sensors as they said that this fault was only in a small number of cars and works well for everybody else.

[FROSTYBALLS]

If the system didn't warn of an impending collision, I suppose one would have to prove the collision was within the expected operational parameters of the system. As far as I'm aware systems such as accident prevention systems aren't covered by any legislation to say how or when they should work.

Aside from that, one's insurer would probably be more interested in repairing/replacing the damaged vehicle.

Bear in mind that there are road traffic accidents where the air bags of vehicles don't deploy because the final impact either isn't of sufficient force or not in the impact area of the air bag sensors. So no safety system is infallible.

Where manufacturers replace a car due to ongoing issues, they usually do so with one of a similar age/mileage.

[Heidfirst]

also, because a system may be installed it doesn't absolve you of your responsibilities for due care & attention. They are merely aids.

[Makokk]

I understand that it may not always work or may not always prevent collision. Like you said it must be within it's parameters. But here we have a system that rarely works or is clearly impaired so it should not be expected to work if needed. You wouldn't be driving around without airbags regardless how good of a driver we think we are and despite the fact they don't always deploy. First it is probably illegal, second it is not safe. 

The real issue here is the dishonesty. Removing the warnings through software to mask the fault would be a very serious error if that's indeed the case and surely they could be pulled for this. I'll email my dealer and see what they are planning to do.. i'm not holding my breath though for a proper resolution. But it would be a kick in the teeth once the warranty expires in a few years to be asked to foot the bill..

[Heidfirst]

25 minutes ago, Makokk said:

I understand that it may not always work or may not always prevent collision. Like you said it must be within it's parameters. But here we have a system that rarely works or is clearly impaired so it should not be expected to work if needed. You wouldn't be driving around without airbags regardless how good of a driver we think we are and despite the fact they don't always deploy. First it is probably illegal, second it is not safe. 

Tbh I don't think that any of us know categorically that because part of the system is not working that other parts are not either. I would imagine that that the pre-collision system & the auto headlights, road sign reading etc. are all subsystems & it certainly should be possible to have resilience in a system like that. We know that the pre-collision system uses sensors that other parts of the system don't.

Mmmm, actually as someone who drove for decades without airbags their non-presence doesn't really bother me.

[FROSTYBALLS]

16 minutes ago, Makokk said:

You wouldn't be driving around without airbags regardless how good of a driver we think we are and despite the fact they don't always deploy. First it is probably illegal, second it is not safe.

In fact there isn't any legislation within the EU to say that air bags must be fitted.

Manufacturers have tended to fit the various forms of air bag (eg. driver, passenger, side, curtain and knee), to gain good EuroNCAP results in crash testing. However, EuroNCAP testing is not mandatory either.

For example in 2014, Audi dealers were found to be informing UK customers that certain models had obtained five stars in EuroNCAP tests, when Audi had decided not to test certain models - namely the A5, A7, A8 and R8.

[Makokk]

Oh wow talk about being dishonest. No wonder they end up paying millions in compensations when deaths or injuries do occur and something is found to be faulty. There were a few cases over the last years at least in america of succesful claims. I don't remember specifics was it GM that got done for it? 

[FROSTYBALLS]

GM have had continuing issues with ignition switches, where a mechanism that keeps the key in place, doesn't if the key is bumped, and may effectively turn the air bags off if involved in a collision. Issues date back to 2001 right through to 2016, at least 13 deaths have occurred as a result, and, to date, approx 11 million vehicles have been recalled. GM have been criticised and fined over delays and how they've handled the various recalls involved.

 

[Heidfirst]

35 minutes ago, Makokk said:

Oh wow talk about being dishonest. No wonder they end up paying millions in compensations when deaths or injuries do occur and something is found to be faulty. There were a few cases over the last years at least in america of succesful claims. I don't remember specifics was it GM that got done for it? 

Jeep is also currently being sued re. gearshifts - allegedly over 300 deaths. No doubt there are plenty more examples involving alleged deaths & even more that don't (e.g. Ford fuel tanks).

The U.S. is an extremely litigious place.

[Terry Parrott]

Having in my career managed both software and hardware engineers at a senior level, I know that they like definitive lists of the issues in order to make progress I therefore thought I would assist Toyota GB by compiling a definitive list of the issue which make the current functionality of the TSS system wholly unfit for purpose:

 

1. The latest TSB for the TSS system flash upgrades the software so that all TSS system alarms are inhibited

2. Motorway variable speed limit areas - The TSS system in my car rarely (<20% of the time) reads the overhead gantry reduced speed limit signs.

3. Motorway variable speed limit areas - The TSS system in my car has never read the overhead gantry signs when they display the road clear – national speed limit sign

4. In a residential area with a 30 MPH or 40 MPH speed limit, having correctly read a 30 MPH or 40 MPH sign, after turning into a junction, crossing/entering a roundabout or after several hundred metres the TSS system just forgets what the speed limit is for the area. This renders the TSS system speed functions as inoperable until another speed limit sign is read. This means that in a town none of the TSS speed limit functions work. Correct functionality would be that the TSS system “remembers” the last speed limit sign it read, unless or until it reads another speed limit sign.

5. The TSS system doesn’t remember the speed limit when the car is parked and locked. Therefore if the vehicle is used wholly in a 30 MPH speed limit area when next started, no TSS speed functionality is operative until a speed limit sign is read. This is never in the EU since 30 MPH (50 KPH) speed limits are never repeated with signage.

[Martin23]

1 hour ago, Terry Parrott said:

1. The latest TSB for the TSS system flash upgrades the software so that all TSS system alarms are inhibited

 

 

Any idea when that was / what the TSB reference was (anyone?), my Avensis was in the dealer in late November and might have missed this - if it  was upgraded then the upgrade didn't work (!).

To be honest if they could upgrade my car so error messages were inhibited I'd be a lot happier driving it at night (because the constant flashing of lights is very very distracting, especially so on the many tiny twisty lanes here in Somerset) .....  I prefer anyway to control the lights and wipers myself and if the crash prevention part isn't working, its no different to my last Avensis, which didn't have TSS.

Further up this thread someone said "would you drive around without airbags?" and my answer would be that if your car has one of the millions of Takata airbags that can kill you when they go off then perhaps I would - so not having the TSS system, which I didn't even know about until after I took delivery of the car - is not an issue for me.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Martin23
typo

[Martin23]

13 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

Further up this thread someone said "would you drive around without airbags?" and my answer would be that if your car has one of the millions of Takata airbags that can kill you when they go off then perhaps I would - so not having the TSS system, which I didn't even know about until after I took delivery of the car - is not an issue for me.

In case you haven't heard about the Takata scandal, heres a definitive US blog:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/massive-takata-airbag-recall-everything-you-need-to-know-including-full-list-of-affected-vehicles/

I know my wife's 2013 Honda Jazz is affected and we're nearly a year on from the initial recall notice which explained the issue and said we'd be notified when parts were available and it's becoming clear that pretty much anyone driving a japanese car as old as 2002 is affected.

[Heidfirst]

I wouldn't call that definitive - as far as I can see their "full list" looks like it may be a full list for the US market but probably not other markets.

[cobh18]

As I understand it the US market airbags had to cater for non-seatbelt wearers, therefore the air bags (and the propellant charge) were larger. 

[Martin23]

51 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

I wouldn't call that definitive - as far as I can see their "full list" looks like it may be a full list for the US market but probably not other markets.

Hiya Scott, I didn't say it was definitive (and in my defence, I did say it was a US post), but if you read - well not all, but some of - the updates, what is clear is that there must be mega numbers of defective airbags in European vehicles (damp climate). And - John - while US cars may have more powerful propellant, a defective European model will still be firing defective welds, etc. (i.e. shrapnel) into your face, so unless you wear safety goggles, I would have thought that even if it didn't kill you, blindness must be a possibility.  One of the updates references a manufacturer's guidance that dealers should glue a note over the top of defective passenger airbags saying "do not sit in this seat" (!)

Takata has just been fined $1 billion over this and a number of their execs are being prosecuted (in the US) for wire fraud.  I imagine that in the US, certainly, this might act as an incentive for auto  manufacturers to speed up the recall programme.

 What's clear is that very few companies seem to consider that customer safety is their number one priority if they can get away with it not being so - and regards the TSS issue, IMO there are far worse problems to deal with as a driver (i.e. killer airbags).

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, Martin23 said:

 heres a definitive US blog:

15 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

 I didn't say it was definitive

 

[Makokk]

let's be honest. The UK is on a fast track in becoming just a litigious place as the US is, we already see it in healthcare. How long do you think these car manufacturers and dealers will get away with faulty airbags or safety systems? i would love this see german manufacturers fined a gazillion pounds over the emmisions scandal, shame eu and uk alike swept it under the carpet..

at least the us is making an example of them.

[Martin23]

5 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

Bugger!  How can I squirm out of that.  What I meant was its definitive for the US (Howzat for a save!)

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Takata air bag issues have been highlighted several times before on Toyota Owners Club, and is ongoing. It isn't just Japanese manufacturers who are affected - BMW, Ford and GM are for example.

As of April 2016, there have been 10 deaths in the US which have been attributed to Takata air bags, which, in relation to the number of road traffic accidents which occur in the US where air bags are deployed, represents a small percentage.

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 hours ago, Terry Parrott said:

Having in my career managed both software and hardware engineers at a senior level, I know that they like definitive lists of the issues in order to make progress I therefore thought I would assist Toyota GB by compiling a definitive list of the issue which make the current functionality of the TSS system wholly unfit for purpose:

1. The latest TSB for the TSS system flash upgrades the software so that all TSS system alarms are inhibited
2. Motorway variable speed limit areas - The TSS system in my car rarely (<20% of the time) reads the overhead gantry reduced speed limit signs.
3. Motorway variable speed limit areas - The TSS system in my car has never read the overhead gantry signs when they display the road clear – national speed limit sign
4. In a residential area with a 30 MPH or 40 MPH speed limit, having correctly read a 30 MPH or 40 MPH sign, after turning into a junction, crossing/entering a roundabout or after several hundred metres the TSS system just forgets what the speed limit is for the area. This renders the TSS system speed functions as inoperable until another speed limit sign is read. This means that in a town none of the TSS speed limit functions work. Correct functionality would be that the TSS system “remembers” the last speed limit sign it read, unless or until it reads another speed limit sign 
5. The TSS system doesn’t remember the speed limit when the car is parked and locked. Therefore if the vehicle is used wholly in a 30 MPH speed limit area when next started, no TSS speed functionality is operative until a speed limit sign is read. This is never in the EU since 30 MPH (50 KPH) speed limits are never repeated with signage.

Have you communicated the above to Toyota GB, as posting it here won't do that.

[Terry Parrott]

Yes I have sent this by email to Paul Vanderburgh CEO Toyota GB - who has read it. Also by registered post to my dealer. 

I have told both that if all faults are not rectified by end Jan 2017 then the car will be rejected under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

[Heidfirst]

I see that one Mercedes dealer is refusing to comply with the Ombudsman re. a car being rejected due to their issue with rhd GLCs "crabbing" on full lock.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2017-01/mercedes-dealer-refuses-to-accept-ruling-of-motor-ombudsman-over-glc-crabbing-issue/

[Makokk]

Well the obunsdman can't force them but it is normally a good indication of what would happen if the customer took the dealer to court. Where fees for whatever you can imagine will be added on to the cost of the vehicle and other legal fees..

[Makokk]

The article says they are considering class action lol