Toyota Safety Sense

[Martin23]

35 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

I see that one Mercedes dealer is refusing to comply with the Ombudsman re. a car being rejected due to their issue with rhd GLCs "crabbing" on full lock.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2017-01/mercedes-dealer-refuses-to-accept-ruling-of-motor-ombudsman-over-glc-crabbing-issue/

Easy to believe a Merc Dealer can display such breathtaking arrogance (based on three visits to different Merc dealers before I bought my first Avensis), but hard to believe they could be so stupid - HJ is one of the most widely read motoing blogs - perhaps they think the user (sorry, customer) concerned will simply give up rather than incurr legal fees?

[FROSTYBALLS]

As the Ombudsman is run by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, the dealer could be expelled from the Society. Wonder if Mercedes will step in,as it impacts on their reputation.

[Makokk]

I think normally dealers are allowed to have an attempt in fixing the problem. But yeah loss of confidence goes a long way..

[Terry Parrott]

Well my TSS is no better despite the TSB works. Here the latest misseif from Toyota GB and my reply.

I am sorry that you remain dissatisfied with the performance of the Toyota Safety Sense system.

I have indicated previously that due to your disappointment with its performance and operation we would be willing to reimburse you for the cost of this option.  This offer still stands as a gesture of goodwill.

What we must convey to you is that this system is an aid and there are circumstances in which the system may disengage.  This does not mean that it is a fault with the TSS or that it is unfit for purpose.  I can also confirm that as part of our philosophy for continuous improvement or 'Kaizen' we have made some changes such as the heater pad and also to the software. I am aware that these have been installed to your Auris but there are no plans for any other modifications or adaptations. Therefore, I must stress that we cannot agree or accede to the request that this matter is rectified by the end of January. 

I understand your request to make an appointment to visit our Head Office but I must confirm that as we are an administrative Head Office we would not be in a position to conduct any tests or inspection. If you do wish to visit us I cannot guarantee that one of our experts will be available I'm afraid and I do not want you to make a wasted journey.

I have spoken to Greg Culshaw, whom you spoke to previously.  He has said that it would be beneficial for you to visit the Toyota Centre and allow them to conduct some road tests. What we would be able to do is ask one of our Field Service Managers (FSM) to meet with you at the Toyota Centre and have a discussion about the TSS and hopefully come to some understanding as to how this aid operates and when it may disable due to outside influences.  

If you would like such a meeting to take place I can liaise with our FSM and try to schedule an appointment with you. Please let me know of some possible dates and I will coordinate with our expert.

In respect of previous questions raised Greg has confirmed that you may need to demonstrate those points in a road test but in relation to points four and five the TSS does not perform in this way and we do not claim that it does this.  Unfortunately, in many respects the system does not meet with your expectations or function in the way in which you think it should do. This does not mean it is faulty or not fit for purpose.  However, we do continue to feedback to our engineers in Europe and Japan customer feedback, both positive and negative.

I have copied Nathan Bye at Inchcape (Sandhurst) into this reply as I know that they are also aware of your dissatisfaction with the TSS and we may well use their Centre as a starting point for any upcoming visit.  

In closing, thank you for your continued feedback and observations and I am sorry that you remain dissatisfied with this aspect of your Toyota. 

I am going to be very honest in this email which I hope will assist Toyota GB and the dealership find a way thru this mess.

I am much less concerned with obtaining a “good will gesture” but very much concerned to have a vehicle with is fit for purpose and a pleasure to drive for the next three years and 3 months. Not an unreasonable aspiration I suggest.

When the TSS system fails – disengages in your words – as the driver I am faced with five dashboard alarms. Qty 2 Amber lights on the right hand round dial on the dashboard – one steady and one flashing. Additionally I see Qty 3 sequentially rotating messages in the centre information panel between the two round dials. One of those messages state “Headlamp Malfunction – consult your dealer”. These messages on the information panel render the information panel inoperative for the other functions it serves e.g. outside air temperature - critical in cold weather and also when stationery access to the “Settings” menu. I have tried the back/return button on the steering wheel which does extinguish the messages briefly – but they return in 2 seconds.

With Qty 5 dashboard alarms, every day in cold weather, I am faced with a dilemma. Page 99 of the Auris Handbook downloaded from the My Toyota website for my car states “These lights turn on when the power switch is turned to ON mode to indicate that a system check is being performed. They will turn off after the hybrid system is on, or after a few seconds. There may be a malfunction in a system if a light does not come on, or if the lights do not turn off. Have the vehicle inspected by any authorized Toyota dealer or repairer, or another duly qualified and equipped professional”

Do I a) drive thru and ignore the alarms – thus not complying with the handbook advice or b) drive to a dealer for them to inspect the vehicle. I doubt Toyota GB would advise option a) and option b) means frequent visits to the dealership and my car being unusable in the winter months – as now. I will be camping out in the dealership as this happens currently most days!

In my email on Sunday 15^th January 2017, I accurately listed five scenarios, all or some of which occur on every journey on every day in my car. Please do not insult my intelligence by stating that the TSS system doesn’t function the way I described, when neither Toyota GB nor the dealership has taken the time to come driving with me in the vehicle, when I can easily demonstrate the scenarios I described. I offered the dealership a chance to come out for a drive when I visited on 6^th January but the offer was declined. Issues 4 and 5 definitely 100% work the way I described on every single journey. I have no idea how the TSS windscreen sensors knows that I have turned left or right after a speed sign has been read and thus the TSS system consequently removes the indication from the information panel. I can only think that there is some erroneous link to the factory fitted sat nav as that’s the only equipment in the car that could judge that a turn has been made.

Going forward every day that I experience one of the scenarios I described, particularly the dashboard warning lights, I will be visiting the dealer. I doubt the dealer will do anything, but it will build a body of evidence that will show that I took all reasonable steps to allow the issues to be resolved before rejecting the car. Dashboard alarms should quite reasonably be an infrequent event – any court in the country would quickly decide that a vehicle with alarms appearing so frequently, almost daily at present, was obviously be “not fit for purpose”

I have already contacted Hampshire and Surrey Trading Standards, and when I get back to the UK on 23^rd January, if we don’t have a framework plan to resolve the issue I will be contacting the SMMT, the motoring press and more aggressively using social media.

Any reputable manufacture would grab at the chance to see and evaluate a vehicle which isn’t performing properly, and with so many dashboard alarms occurring so frequently. Currently I don’t’ feel Toyota GB, nor the dealership for that matter, are engaged with finding a resolution. As I said before I can come to Burgh Heath or we meet at the dealership, anytime on either 24^th, 25^th, 26^th or 27^th January.

I am trying to be entirely reasonable, and I don’t particularly want to formally reject the car, but I cannot be expected to drive the vehicle for the next 3 years with so many dashboard alarms appearing and a TSS system that doesn’t work.

[Martin23]

7 minutes ago, Terry Parrott said:

Any reputable manufacture would grab at the chance to see and evaluate a vehicle which isn’t performing properly, and with so many dashboard alarms occurring so frequently

On Saturday I collected my Avensis after 2 weeks with the dealer.  They were unable to repeat the issue, despite driving the car at night and in cold weather, although I suspect this was simply one of the technicians driving it home.  The explanation I received fits broadly with yours Terry, and is one no doubt handed down by Toyota's lawyers. 

My dealer is embarrassed and somewhat panicky (I discern) as their sales people freely admit, this problem spans all Toyota vehicles (fitted with TSS) and once the extent of the problem hits the mainstream media they no doubt foresee plummeting sales.

Interestingly I was loaned a Prius with every extra (their demonstrator) and drove it over 400 miles in mixed conditions and not once did I see a TSS alert.  It didn't have auto wipers (I wonder why) but all other elements of TSS were there....  but it did have RADAR so I wonder if LIDAR is the issue?

[Martin23]

1 hour ago, Martin23 said:

freely admit, this problem spans all Toyota vehicles (fitted with TSS)

I forgot to mention that the dealer Tech manager told me of one further issue to throw into the mix.

The TSS system is apparently NOT designed, nor manufactured by Toyota.  Its a third-party system increasingly fitted by many other manufacturers, so it's probably beyond the capability of Toyota Motor Co to fix anytime soon

[FROSTYBALLS]

5 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

The TSS system is apparently NOT designed, nor manufactured by Toyota.  Its a third-party system increasingly fitted by many other manufacturers, so it's probably beyond the capability of Toyota Motor Co to fix anytime soon

It isn't unusual for components or systems to be designed and manufactured by a supplier.

For example: the multi mode e-transmission used in the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV was designed by GKN Driveline, is built by them and supplied to Mitsubishi.

[Martin23]

4 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

It isn't unusual for components or systems to be designed and manufactured by a supplier.

Yes indeedy, but my point is that it increases the complexity of a fix and however much we keep at or embarrass Toyota, they can't actually solve it themselves....

[FROSTYBALLS]

11 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

Yes indeedy, but my point is that it increases the complexity of a fix and however much we keep at or embarrass Toyota, they can't actually solve it themselves....

Not the case. Toyota will have involved the system manufacturer from day one - especially if the system is an external design - and it will be the system manufacturer in conjunction with Toyota who will be working on issues, certainly if modifications need to be incorporated into the production of the system. 

[Martin23]

37 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Not the case

I beg to differ Mate, what I said is exactly the case, they can't solve it themselves, they need their third party. I expect that you, like me, have been involved in complex technological multi-supplier manufactured solutions and in my experience the more parties involved, the more complexities exist and the longer the solution takes to arrive.   

If we knew who the third party were, we could also include them in the "issue loop".  If, as I've been told, this system is in other cars, then are their drivers suffering the same problems?  Are there other drivers who, with us, can start pressuring the third party?  The bigger this gets, the more pressure and eventually the more publicity there can be.  Both of those increases the likelihood of a more rapid delivery of a solution

[Terry Parrott]

My big issue is the constant alarms. I'm going to the dealer everytime I get an alarm as per the handbook; so daily at present. The dealer will soon get ****** off and help sort it.

The other issue is that Toyota say my car is operating normally without actually seeing the car. This tells me they know they have issues with TSS.

[Martin23]

35 minutes ago, Terry Parrott said:

constant alarms

I'm with you on that one. I'm considering stopping driving mine at night and using my Morris Oxford.....

[timspud]

On 1/6/2017 at 6:06 PM, Terry Parrott said:

I understand that - but likewise as I've pointed out to Toyota UK if the system is not working correctly - as now - then one cannot drive the car as the insurance could be invalid! My car is therefore not roadworthy and I expect a hire car of the same standard!!

any further updates?

[Terry Parrott]

On 26th Jan the Toyota Field Service Manager came with me in the car for a drive and I was able to demonstrate most of the issues. In his view it was all working normally though he could give no reasoning behind the idiotic design The dealer has refused to book the car in any more despite the car showing alarms and it being a requirement in the handbook, so I am also wring to Toyota Finance that I am am now unable to maintain the car in accordance with the handbook. The following day I had yet more alarms, so I sent the email below the Toyota GB, and I am still awaiting a reply. I also enclosed a picture (enclosed here) of the windscreen area in from of the TSS sensors showing that it was completely clear, yet I still had TSS alarms.

The operational functionality of the TSS system fitted to my car goes from bad to worse. This morning I went out to drive the vehicle at 08:50. The temperature was just above 0C with some wet ice on the car windscreen. I cleared the ice from all windows taking special care to clean the area in front of the TSS sensors – see attached picture. Yet I still had all the usual TSS alarms i.e. Qty 2 Amber alarms and Qty 3 info panel messages. How is it that with the area in front of the TSS sensors COMPLETELY clear of all ice and condensation that the TSS system STILL fails to function?

I drove to the dealer, some 4 miles, with demist on all the way but still alarms were present on arrival. I went inside to book the car in for an inspection IAW the handbook, but the dealer has refused to book the car in for an inspection as per the handbook instructions. I now am unable to comply with the handbook instructions.

I went outside and got into the car, and despite it having stood for 10 minutes in the sun, I STILL had TSS alarms. How can a system operating in this way be “normal” and “fit for purpose”. How many miles am I supposed to drive before the TSS alarms extinguish?p

We are now rapidly reaching the stage where a legal approach is all that is left for me. It’s still not my preferred route but what else am I supposed to do. Toyota cannot surely expect a driver to have to drive the car with so many alarms appearing on an almost daily basis?

In the interim, in my view ALL the TSS equipment in my car needs to be changed out to eliminate what could be an intermittent fault, otherwise I am going to be left with no option but to trigger legal proceedings.

[Terry Parrott]

 I've been in contact with Autoexpress who asked for details, so this is what I sent yesterday:

And to assist some background on the issues. Before adding the Toyota Safety Sense (TSS) option I researched the available sales literature and the Toyota UK webs site. No limitations were given. I took delivery on 23^rd September 2016, and it quickly became obvious that TSS is not fit for purpose. TSS consist of three main components, Pre Crash System (PCS), Lane Depart Alarm (LDA) and Road Sign Assist (RSA).

With the onset of the cold weather in mid-December 2016 the car almost daily displays TSS alarms. Toyota and other drivers via the internet, suggest that this is caused by condensation on the windscreen in front of the TSS sensors.  Toyota GB issued a Service Bulletin, with added a heater element to the TSS housing. I, and others via the internet, haven’t noticed any real improvement.

On Friday 27^th Jan 2017 despite a clear windscreen, I still had TSS alarms displayed. The handbook requires the car to be taken to a dealer for inspection after TSS alarms have been displayed. On 27^th Jan I took the car to Toyota Sandhurst, but they refused to book the car in as the alarms are now so regular. With no cure for the frequent alarms for a car which is just three months old, I have to drive the car with the alarms constantly on the dashboard, which is very dangerous at night.

With regard to LDA, this doesn’t work below 32 MPH (which was not advised before purchase) and so in urban areas, town and cities, LDA will not work. With regard to RSA, having read a road sign correctly the system “forgets” what it read after turning at a junction or driving for around 300 metres. So this means RSA also doesn’t work in urban areas, town and cities. It also doesn’t work on bendy/winding roads, so pretty useless really.

Overall the TSS system is extremely poor, and should not be displaying these frequent alarms, when the windscreen is clear.

[Makokk]

I think we should consider filing a complain together to the Obundsman or something..

[Terry Parrott]

I am ready for the Ombudsman but they won't get involved until the dealer has been given 8 weeks to resolve the issues. I have also contacted the BBC Watchdog programme.

We should also all email updates and complaints to Toyota GB's CEO Paul Vanderburgh whose email is paul.vanderburgh@tgb.toyota.co.uk. There head of Quality is Greg Culshaw and his email is greg.culshaw@tgb.toyota.co.uk

The more emails they get the more they will wake up to the issues!

[cobh18]

16 Jan 17. Car into dealer for attention to complaint re TSS. Spoke to technician after receiving car back. After driving the Auris with no warnings initially, they found an error code re camera axial alignment. Adjusted camera angle slightly.

 

Technician said he helped sort out the TSB as they were among the first to get this issue. One factor is said to be AC, where people have it off and moisture gets into car atmosphere. The dealer supposedly initiated the fitting of a heater to eliminate problems caused by moisture. I have my doubts but that is their claim to fame.

 

I haven't pressed them on the mods required under the TSB re heater module as I doubt Toyota and the makers of the system have actually got the fault resolved yet. 

 

No faults after 16 January but car only used for short trips, until:

 

27 Jan 2017

 

No fault during drive  to Manchester via  Macclesfield over Cat and Fiddle, in dense fog, temperature -4c. Windscreen not iced up as covered overnight.  AC on all the time. Warning signs re TSS began after approx 30 minutes driving, in slow traffic approaching Manchester. Temp -1c at that point.

 

Dry, and fairly clear visibility, speed walking pace in congestion due to road works. Continued to kick in and out at intervals, about 10 times in total,  in faster (40 max) traffic towards city.  If ignition switched off, e.g at lights, error message went, but returned after a short period.

 

No error messages  on return trip at 1545 in extremely slow, dense traffic via Stockport and onto A6. Temp 4c in Manchester, down to 0c in Buxton. Dry, but misty during climb towards Buxton over Long Hill. 

 

One oddity: no error messages noted until vehicle has been running for several miles. Not seen on short shopping trips etc. Will continue to log error messages and get in touch with dealer again if it recurrs.

 

My concern is primarily the flashing lights at night, and the disabling of the auto setting of the headlamps whilst the fault exists. The "lane departure" has already been switched off as it's of no value on twisting roads in Cheshire and Derbyshire.

 

I'll add my tale of woe in due course, after the next saga.

 

 

[Makokk]

I find that the warnings sometimes come on when there are other vehicles on the road, so as soon as my car sees other cars red lights it just stops working.. And it still gets condensation inside the sensor unit despite no comdensation in the rest of the vehicle somehow.

But I do have to say, I do not recall being told at any point that the system might fail under certain conditions or prewarned of any situations that it might not function properly. I understand in fog and poor visibility this might be the case regardless but clear blue skies should not be a problem? Surely this is a manufacturing/design error?

 

not sure why these pictures are upside down either lol..

 

[Martin23]

1 hour ago, Terry Parrott said:

he more emails they get the more they will wake up to the issues!

Here's mine:

Good Day Gentlemen

With regard to my previous email (below) and to emails I am aware you have received from other Toyota users in regards to this problem, I have now collected my 2016 Avensis (reg number xxxx) after two weeks at my local dealer, Somerset County cars.

Firstly I have nothing but praise for SCC for the professional manner in which they have handled this problem - even though the alerts are still occurring I recognise this is down to a failure by Toyota Motor Company to provide a fix and not the fault of your agents. 

On collecting my car it was explained that Toyota contends the continuing but random triggering of warning icons and alert messages show the vehicle is operating correctly by warning the driver that the safety systems have been disabled.

I could not disagree with this statement at all, but I do consider the overall message from Toyota to be one of "Alternate truths", a series of statements of which an American president would be proud.  This overlooks a fundamental truth that the TSS system is not performing as intended, the system is not "always on" as one would reasonably expect from a safety system and so in that respect I believe no reasonable person could describe TSS as a fully functioning component of the vehicle - in my mind it is therefore a malfunctioning system.  So the problem here is not that the alerts software is performing as intended as your company suggests, but that the sub-system it monitors is not 100% operational.

At no stage during the purchase process for my vehicle did any person associated with Toyota, nor in any Toyota documents was there ever any suggestion that the TSS system would be anything other than "always on" and given the extensive and wide-ranging publicity promulgated by Toyota there was likewise no suggestion other than that the TSS system was there to provide protection and assistance 100% of the time.

Perhaps I should remind you of the very first statement on your own website " To enjoy a feeling of safety and reassurance behind the wheel, we have developed Toyota Safety Sense, a range of new active safety systems designed to keep you and your passengers out of harm's way. At low speeds Toyota Safety Sense can help prevent collisions entirely, while at higher speeds, it aims to lessen the severity of any impact."  This seems to be missing some important detail - i.e. the words "but not all of the time - sometimes in cold weather; at night; in thick fog or in heavy rain the system will disable itself" so in  a very real sense I would say the advertising standards authority could contend your statements are highly misleading.  Surely night, cold weather and rain are quite important factors in accidents and collisions, so are you serious in marketing a system that only works properly in warm dry weather during the day - you can hardly describe them as " active safety systems " can you, they're actually "sometimes active safety systems "?

I must also say that I am disappointed not to have been contacted by a member of your central customer services department following my previous email, nor has any member of Toyota UK suggested that you have a specific case running against my vehicle, so to all intents and purposes Toyota UK is ignoring me.   

I am becoming increasingly exasperated by the presence of this problem and as noted below, the continuing random appearance of the yellow flashing light and alert messages remain a safety issue in their own right "by distraction" and if I were to have the opportunity to swap my Avensis for a similar vehicle (Toyota or other manufacturer) not having a TSS system then I would certainly do so with alacrity! 

It's also with a degree of sadness that I have to say I am now advising all those in my social and business circle to avoid purchasing a Toyota vehicle until the issue has been resolved - no-one likes to admit they have bought a pup,  but in this case I feel it would be wrong not to spread the word about the nasty problems lying in wait for prospective purchasers.

My ask is simple (I believe)

1.      1. Amend the TSS software so that

a.      when the system is NOT available: the yellow icon will flash 3 times only, with an accompanying message that the system has been disabled.

b.      when the system is again available: the yellow icon will flash 3 times only, with an accompanying message that the system has been re-enabled

2.       2. Fix the underlying problem that causes the TSS system to the disabled in the first place.

Some assurances from Toyota that is it aware of and intends to resolve and is committed to resolving the underlying problem would be most appreciated, rather than the deafening silence so far.

[cobh18]

Interesting re tail lights. However, I came across a few via Macclesfield, and nothing went wrong at that time. It seems the symptoms vary somewhat, and are also intermittent, pointing to a software problem perhaps.  

[Martin23]

30 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

One oddity: no error messages noted until vehicle has been running for several miles. Not seen on short shopping trips etc.

Annoyingly I have had error messages after a few hundred yards and 1.5 miles, but I do agree that most often its some way thriugh much longer trips.

[cobh18]

9 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

Annoyingly I have had error messages after a few hundred yards and 1.5 miles, but I do agree that most often its some way thriugh much longer trips.

Oh, we have that to look forward to!  All very random. Was this TSS device ever debugged?  

Given the distraction caused, and the lack of robustness of the TSS, I'm thinking DVSA need to know.

I'm now wondering whether to go for another make. Chose Toyota over VAG on the basis of perceived reliability. I liked my 1.8 Yeti more, but didn't trust their cam chain:) 

 

[Martin23]

11 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

Good Day Gentlemen

I should have said the email was sent to the two directors at Toyota and my local dealer...  dealers are as much in the dark about this as are we, they just want it fixed before it starts affecting sales.  Unfortunately the owner's contractual / legal relationship is with the dealer unless there is a class action of some sort.  I believe our best weapon comes through the sort of publicity generated by letters and emails to the motoring press and BBC watchdog, so that's where my next emails will be going....

[cobh18]

I've already flagged this situation up on Honest John, in the owners review section. No nibbles yet but more examples might help flush out Toyota from their hidey-hole.