Toyota Safety Sense

[FROSTYBALLS]

As regards the DVSA recall system, they will only start joint investigations with the manufacturer if 1) the issue is related to a vehicle's roadworthiness, and 2) if they receive a number of complaints about the same issue (the threshold for when an investigation is launched is not known).  Any investigation will be carried out with the manufacturer. If it is deemed the issue affects the vehicle's roadworthiness enough to warrant a recall, DVSA will supply owner details to the manufacturer via DVLA, and the manufacturer will contact owners of affected vehicles.

If DVSA receive an insufficient number of complaints, complainants are contacted appropriately and the matter dropped.

[Martin23]

17 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

I've already flagged this situation up on Honest John, in the owners review section

I've asked a question using "ask HJ", John .  In the past I've had answers / comments within 24 hours and the man does seem to reply to some in person - and ocassionally enters into a conversation, so here's hoping something will come of this.

[Terry Parrott]

To be honest I'm very happy to sue the dealer in the Smalls Claims court. It only costs £25 and I don't think any dealer, nor Toyota for that matter, will won't these issues discussed in open court with the press attending. It very easy, I've done it before to LG with my mobile phone, companies usually settle as it costs them a fortune on lawyers time and them want to keep the issues internal. If they don't settle its a very friendly court to attend, close to where you live. Simples!

[Martin23]

8 minutes ago, Terry Parrott said:

I'm very happy to sue the dealer in the Smalls Claims court

I agree with everything you say Terry, but the b*gger of this is that apart from TSS (and the tiny-ness of the clock!) I love my Avensis Tourer every bit as much as my previous car (an Avensis Tourer!) and I really want to keep it.  I've owned it for 10 months and so have no legal opportunity to reject it, like you.  But there does come a point where enough's enough, so if its not sorted by the time the car is a year old that's a route I'll be considering very seriously.

Cheers!

[Terry Parrott]

I too would like to keep my Auris but only if they fix the issues.  If you wait a year you will loose in the courts as you be deemed to "have accepted" the issues. After about 6 months it's difficult to win the case. 

I will be looking to have the option price refunded plus the interest plus a 20% refund from the monthly payment for have to drive a car with regular multiple alarms and a TSS that doesn't work as advertised. 

[Makokk]

I've had mine for 14 months now so no legal right to reject it either. It has given me no other problems whatsoever and it was a replacement for my previous toyota auris that I gave to my parents when i got this one. Needless to say that should I be replacing my car in the future it certainly won't be toyota anymore.

[estate]

I'm about to take delivery of an Avensis equipped with TSS in a few weeks time and I'm now a bit concerned after reading the problems with the system here, especially if Toyota GB doesn't appear to be dealing with the complains in a professional manner. Perhaps they should have pulled the Andon Cord, at the assembly line that would have put some urgency into sorting this problem out, instead of sticking their head in the sand and continually producing defective vehicles. If it goes public, there no doubt that sales will be effected.

Does anyone know if its only UK produced vehicles that are affected and are they all displaying similar symptoms?

I would have thought that Toyota GB had learned the lessons from Toyota USA, after their farcical episodes, of trying to hide and cover-up problems? 

[Makokk]

Honestly had I known this system would be problematic I would have cancelled my order and looked at other dealers. You should probably ask if you can get out of it although you might loose your part of your deposit? And perharps question your dealer about it and try and get some assurances in writing?

But I would seriously check other brands that have systems like this, I was looking into Nissan Qashqai to be honest but I don't know if their systems work any better..

[Terry Parrott]

Here is the summary document I have assembled ready for court action:

Background before purchase

 

Before placing my order for my vehicle, I studied the Toyota UK website and sales literature about the operation, functionality and prices for adding Toyota Safety Sense (TSS) to my new car.

Based upon the details which were available at the time, and now for that matter, I placed an order for my new car, paying for the TSS option to be factory fitted.

After delivery

After delivery, It quickly became abundantly clear that the overall performance of TSS fell well short of that which could be reasonable expected and that several “limitations” not made clear BEFORE purchase in any literature or on the Toyota GB website.  These limitations and functionality mean that the TSS system is not “fit for purpose”. The TSS system is marketed by Toyota as a safety aid. It would be entirely reasonable to assume that a safety aid would be available and working for a very high proportion of the time, but alas it is not.

TSS alarms

With the onset of winter in mid-December the TSS system regularly fails to operate, and a plethora of alarms are displayed on the dashboard, even after the windscreen is complete clear and/or after many miles of driving.  These alarms, both textual and amber lights, make driving at night particularly uncomfortable. They render the central information panel and its features inoperable, and they are a significant distraction from the road ahead.

Toyota GB, via my local dealer, has carried out a Tech Service Bulletin but this has made no difference to the frequency of alarms, which in cold weather is almost daily. Recently I have provided evidence of a completely clear windscreen when the car was still displaying TSS alarms. These frequent alarms, on a new car, mean that the TSS system cannot be “fit for purpose”. It is entirely reasonable to expect that dashboard alarms are an infrequent event, especially on a new car. It is wholly unreasonable that a safety system display alarms daily.

Lane Departure Alarms (LDA)

Immediately after delivery, it became apparent that the LDA system is not available below a vehicular speed of 32 MPH. This means that the LDA cannot function in urban, town or city areas where the speed limit is 30 MPH. This limitation was NOT made clear in any literature or on the Toyota web site BEFORE purchase. Had it been made known to me I would not have taken the TSS option.

Road Sign Assist (RSA)

Again, immediately after delivery it became apparent that RSA’s performance is well below that which could reasonably be expected. None of these limitations/faults was mentioned in any literature or on the Toyota UK web site BEFORE purchase.

1)      On UK motorways where there is a variable speed limit more than 30% of the time the TSS RSA system does not read reduced speed overhead gantry signs. This renders RSA useless on motorways.

2)      On UK motorways in variable speed limit areas, the TSS has never read the “all clear national speed limit” sign on overhead gantry’s. This renders RSA useless on motorways.

3)      Having correctly read a speed limit sign, after turning in either direction at any junction or traversing a roundabout thereafter, the RSA system “forgets” the speed limit sign it just read. This means that the RSA system cannot work in urban, town or city areas, nor on bendy or winding roads.

4)      Having correctly read a speed limit sign the RSA forgets the sign it has just read after driving for around 300 metres.

Summary

These faults / limitations mean that the whole TSS system is not “fit for purpose”

[Swede_mike]

I can tell you that this problem is all over the world. A german forum:  http://auris-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=6281

Here in Sweden it's a lot of people complaining.

My car were "fixed" three times before I gave up, the latest Fix with stronger heating elements worked better but not completely. They changed the software a lot too. Less annoying software meant that the display between the two dials weren't blocked all the time anymore, just one warning and then only blinking warning symbol.

I had my Auris for 14 months and are now driving a car that have a working safety system and it's not a Toyota.

The only reason for selling the Auris was TSS, that system is a joke! Like a cheap built chinese toy.

This is the result after the last "fix" with heater (had a smaller heater before), water inside:

[Swede_mike]

You forgot that automatic high beam doesn't work when the system fails, in my mind actually a long time BEFORE warnings is shown so I wonder if the system works at all...

[Makokk]

You had it for more that a year, how did you change your car? Did you manage to get your money back from you dealer or did you have to accept a loss on your initial investment??

[Makokk]

Mind you my heating in the car can solve any steaming/condensation in minutes. Would it not be better if they had some sort of open or with small holes frame to keep the sensors in so that the condensation does not get built up there in the first place than trying and failing to create a condensation free area which is clearly not working? 

 

Clearly I am not a mechanic so this is probably not the smartest solution..

[Swede_mike]

I didn't do anything, the dealer had it for three fixes.

1. Heater that took one hour to install. Did not help at all. 4 months after buy.

2. Rain-x, less visible mist but water instead. Did not help at all. 6 months after buy.

3. Large heater installed with new software, took several hours to install. Did actually help a lot but not 100%. 13 months after buy.

I ordered a new car (Volvo) after the second attempt to fix the Auris because nothing happened after that, it took 7 months after that before the last fix got installed.

I traded my car for a new, Toyota didn't pay me anything.

[Swede_mike]

5 minutes ago, Makokk said:

Mind you my heating in the car can solve any steaming/condensation in minutes. Would it not be better if they had some sort of open or with small holes frame to keep the sensors in so that the condensation does not get built up there in the first place than trying and failing to create a condensation free area which is clearly not working? 

 

Clearly I am not a mechanic so this is probably not the smartest solution..

Volvo have four heater threads like in the rear window, it works without any problem at all.

[Makokk]

That's the problem. In a year a car looses almost half its value. I didn't ask for a faulty TSS, certainly wasn't told of any "limitations" although I would accept common sense limitations (fog, ice). This is plainly not working right. It just seems very hard to accept that I will be the one loosing thousands of pounds because of Toyota's ubik up.. 

[Swede_mike]

One more concern with the last fix is if you break your windshield.

It will not be easy to change it as heaters are glued to it and calibration of the TSS possible takes several hours.

[Makokk]

3 minutes ago, Swede_mike said:

Volvo have four heater threads like in the rear window, it works without any problem at all.

Surely toyota can do something similar?!

[Swede_mike]

8 minutes ago, Makokk said:

Surely toyota can do something similar?!

Probably not so easy they must be positioned so they don't disturb the sensors and camera.

Could be impossible actually.

It's a badly tested solution from Continental if I got it right, toyota has bought this system.

http://www.autoconnectedcar.com/2015/08/toyota-safety-sense-made-sense-from-continental-multi-function-camera-with-lidar-mfl/

 

Toyotas system is a bad joke compared to Volvo, I even have a very well functioning auto pilot now with distance control. The car drives fully by itself.

[FROSTYBALLS]

4 minutes ago, Swede_mike said:

One more concern with the last fix is if you break your windshield.

It will not be easy to change it as heaters are glued to it and calibration of the TSS possible takes several hours.

In the UK, the majority of insurers cover glass breakage as part of their comprehensive insurance policies. So if a car requires heater elements for the TSS to be replaced with the windscreen, its the responsibility of the insurer to ensure the replacement screen is like for like, and includes the elements.

[Swede_mike]

Yes but the cost is one thing and how long it will take and who can do it is another.

Of course the insurance here will cover it as well but it will probably take longer time and maybe two visits instead of one for service.

[HARDO421]

Good afternoon guys

I have posted a few things on this section with regards to my previous Auris with TSS.

I have now taken delivery of a 2017 Verso 3weeks ago with TSS and and the housing around the sensor is different to the auris with more air vents and heater unit already installed. 

I have already covered 1000 miles and no faults yet so I wonder if the new design changes for new cars has worked?

[FROSTYBALLS]

7 minutes ago, HARDO421 said:

Good afternoon guys

I have now taken delivery of a 2017 Verso 3weeks ago

So does your profile need editing?

[HARDO421]

Just trying to do this on a mobile now

[Makokk]

But if they have solved the problem surely they should be replacing the ones that are faulty?