Toyota Safety Sense

[FROSTYBALLS]

10 minutes ago, Makokk said:

But if they have solved the problem surely they should be replacing the ones that are faulty?

Most manufacturers will do the production fix first, and then sort already purchased cars with the replacement parts. We don't know when the different parts fitted to the Verso were first fitted. If it was recently, then the manufacturer may be in the process of seeing whether the new parts solve the issue with the Auris TSS, and then notifying the dealer network of the process for replacing the parts.

[HARDO421]

The manufacturing date on my Verso is 12.12.16 and I took delivery early January.

my Verso is the spec changed one for 2017 and Production for the updated Verso began November 16 

[timspud]

5 hours ago, estate said:

I'm about to take delivery of an Avensis equipped with TSS in a few weeks time and I'm now a bit concerned after reading the problems with the system here, especially if Toyota GB doesn't appear to be dealing with the complains in a professional manner. Perhaps they should have pulled the Andon Cord, at the assembly line that would have put some urgency into sorting this problem out, instead of sticking their head in the sand and continually producing defective vehicles. If it goes public, there no doubt that sales will be effected.

Does anyone know if its only UK produced vehicles that are affected and are they all displaying similar symptoms?

I would have thought that Toyota GB had learned the lessons from Toyota USA, after their farcical episodes, of trying to hide and cover-up problems? 

Same problem here in Ireland, Toyota denial the same. My solicitor has fowarded all my papers and log of issues and "fixes" as well as letter from Toyota Ireland stating the problem was universal across Europe was not really a fault but there would be a fix soon for an opinon from a Barrister. I expect this opinion this week. My struggle with this problems is running for 12 months now.

[Makokk]

Good luck with it. I do wonder how many cars are affected, is it all of them? There aren't that many of us in the forum, not that this means anything..

Also would this be a problem in humidity with condensation forming? Not that we get any here but in the future I might ship the car abroad or something amd was womdering if anyone had any thoughts or experience..

[Martin23]

1 hour ago, Makokk said:

I do wonder how many cars are affected, is it all of them?

A Toyota salesperson told me quite candidly that it's pretty much a majority of owners who have a vehicle fitted with TSS, so "more than 51%".  Having seen posts on the subject from Germay, Ireland and Finland and an article criticising Toyota in a Danish publication its fair to assume that the problem is widespread enough for it to be considered a brand-threatening issue once its more widely reported in the mainstream media....

[Heidfirst]

24 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

A Toyota salesperson told me quite candidly that it's pretty much a majority of owners who have a vehicle fitted with TSS, so "more than 51%".  

I very much doubt that a salesman at a dealer has access to the full figures - he can probably only comment on his & immediate colleagues experience.

It would be interesting to know what other companies have bought Continental's system & whether they are having similar issues.

[Martin23]

3 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

salesman at a dealer has access to the full figures

It was for one dealership.  Logic and statistical method says it can't be confined just to that one dealership so it's logical to extrapolate this.  We've heard here that its in the minds of the UK CEO & Head of Quality and the focus of meetings across Europe

[Heidfirst]

1 minute ago, Martin23 said:

It was for one dealership.  Logic and statistical method says it can't be confined just to that one dealership so it's logical to extrapolate this.  We've heard here that its in the minds of the UK CEO & Head of Quality and the focus of meetings across Europe

Nobody is saying that it confined to only 1 dealer but the sample size of 1 dealer is likely far too small for accurate extrapolation.

[FROSTYBALLS]

"Immediately after delivery, it became apparent that the LDA system is not available below a vehicular speed of 32 MPH. This means that the LDA cannot function in urban, town or city areas where the speed limit is 30 MPH. This limitation was NOT made clear in any literature or on the Toyota web site BEFORE purchase. Had it been made known to me I would not have taken the TSS option."

Lane Departure Warning Systems are designed to operate on arterial roads, motorways, etc, and commonly have a threshold speed above which they will operate. The Toyota system may well operate only when the vehicle is travelling above 32mph. The system in our Hyundai has a speed threshold of 38mph, so only operates above this speed.

[Terry Parrott]

If LDA is designed to work above a certain speed threshold then that threshold should be contained within any sales literature and on the Toyota website. Alas it is not so I was told lies before purchasing the vehicle

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Sales literature and car manufacturer websites tend to provide overviews of features rather than operating detail. For example Hyundai and Mazda, like Toyota, don't include the speed threshold information on their websites or vehicle brochures.

[Terry Parrott]

"Two wrongs don't make a right" springs to mind. More importantly why would you design, what is marketed as a safety system, which doesn't work below a certain speed threshold? Isn't safety required below that threshold speed?

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Lane departure warning systems, as stated previously, are designed for use on arterial roads, motorways, etc, and help warn the driver in events such as falling asleep at the wheel, unintentional straying, etc. All similar systems I've seen, operate above a specified speed threshold - for example: Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai, BMW, Ford, Vauxhall, Nissan, Volkswagen, Seat, Skoda, Kia, Peugeot, Citroen, etc.

[Terry Parrott]

How is a prospective purchaser supposed to know or guess that LDA doesn't work below a threshold speed? And again why would you design a safety system that only works above a threshold speed? What's the logic in that?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Research.

[Parts-King]

19 minutes ago, Terry Parrott said:

How is a prospective purchaser supposed to know or guess that LDA doesn't work below a threshold speed? And again why would you design a safety system that only works above a threshold speed? What's the logic in that?

I suppose you could say the same about Cruise Control, that only works above a certain speed. I think the pre collision system only works above 10 KPH too, sure ive read that in the manual 

[Martin23]

15 hours ago, Martin23 said:

It was for one dealership.  Logic and statistical method says it can't be confined just to that one dealership so it's logical to extrapolate this.  We've heard here that its in the minds of the UK CEO & Head of Quality and the focus of meetings across Europe

I've come to the conclusion after research and discussions with insiders at Toyota that its unreasonable to expect a TSS-alike system to work in all circumstances - for example fog, heavy snow, ice.  I also don't want the situation some VAG drivers were faced with where the system applied the brakes (sometimes quite forcibly) when it detected obscured vision.  The problem (as I see it) is that we drivers have gotten an expectation that it will be 100% available and I do think Toyota has painted itself into a corner by not making clear that there are occasions when TSS may not be operational.  This doesn't appear in any documentation and I was not told so during the sale process.  That's not to say that there isn't a problem with condensation because clearly there is.

On the positive side, the latest software changes were designed to change the way in which alerts were displayed and separate the alerts for the collision mitigation system from the others as well as turning off flashing icons after a number of seconds and clearing the info screen after 6 (I think) seconds - I now realise I've seen this behaviour on my car after the update.  What I haven't seen is a solid red warning light to say that the collision mitigation system is inoperable, so perhaps this means the collision mitigation sub-system remains operational as suggested below?

My understanding from the behaviour of my car (now that it's been explained to me) is that the collision mitigation system is more often working even when the yellow flashing light is telling me other parts of the system (Lane departure, auto lights, etc) have been disabled.  Unfortunately from comments of some other drivers in this forum, these changes don't seem to have been 100% effective, but for me I have not seen a TSS alert for the last 10 days even though the weather has been as cold as previously.

The TSS system is manufactured by Continental and fitted or soon-to-be fitted by most European manufacturers and each has a different implementation of software and a different specification for the fitting of the hardware (pod etc.).  I'm only aware of VAG having similar issues to TSS but it's entirely possible that many of them also experience condensation and this is the fundamental problem that Toyota is still trying to find a fix for.  I believe it's been reported that Volvo has heating filaments across the windscreen in front of the pod and it seems to me to be the ideal solution, but whether Toyota can retrofit such a solution remains open to question having already invested in the heat pad.

Like most multi-nationals Toyota GB has no control whatsoever over the process of design and software changes, they can only input the voice of the customer and the voice of Toyota GB into the Japanese parent who does operate and control these processes.  Speaking as one who spent nearly 30 years working for the UK operating company of an business equipment design, manufacturing and sales company based in the USA I do understand how such an organisation works so I can say that the ability of Toyota GB to fix this issue is very very limited and the speed of delivery is going to be longer than any of us might hope.

 

I appreciate that some on this forum are experiencing issues every day and this does make for an immensely frustrating driving experience but for my part I have steeled myself to wait and see if Toyota can come up with a fix over the next couple of months, now that I better understand what's happening.

[Terry Parrott]

I'm not sure what software you had fitted, but my software flash upgrade made no difference at all, save one screen on the central info panel did disappear, the one stating Demist your windscreen. All other alarms are still present and TSS functionality is unchanged.

 

[Martin23]

17 minutes ago, Terry Parrott said:

I'm not sure what software you had fitted

Pass.  All I can say is the behaviour is different.  However, from a conversation with Toyota its not operating exactly as they intended, so more work needed!

[Makokk]

I agree it is unreasonable to expect it to work always. But I have photos of clear blue skies and no condensation in the vehicle it self, and condensation inside the sensor box. So there is an issue with the design of this thing not just software. Toyota chose to fit that system that they bought from another manufacturer and suspect that they may have compromised quality over price. They certainly did not test it enough to find and resolve these issues before they fitted every new car with it. As a buyer my expectations have not changed, I expect it to be functional during cold weather. I do live in the UK after all and bad weather is to be expected, I understand fog and ice but that's all I can accept. 

Why should Toyota expect people to buy cars with this system when they can go to another dealer and buy something that actually works? I don't think I owed them my hard earned money and if I could get my money back and buy anothe vehicle I would. My family always bought Toyota, this car was a replacement for my previous Toyota, a 2008 Toyota Auris. All I'll say is that when the time comes for a new vehicle it won't be toyota anymore..

[Heidfirst]

58 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

The TSS system is manufactured by Continental and fitted or soon-to-be fitted by most European manufacturers and each has a different implementation of software and a different specification for the fitting of the hardware (pod etc.).  I'm only aware of VAG having similar issues to TSS but it's entirely possible that many of them also experience condensation and this is the fundamental problem that Toyota is still trying to find a fix for.  I believe it's been reported that Volvo has heating filaments across the windscreen in front of the pod and it seems to me to be the ideal solution, but whether Toyota can retrofit such a solution remains open to question having already invested in the heat pad.

From what I understand from some brief research the system (or at least 1) fitted to Volvos is also supplied by Continental - indeed the system supplied to Toyota is supposedly an updated/upgraded version of it for which Toyota are the initial customer (so I guess get to field test the system for initial flaws ...). I am sure that this or competitive systems will become standard fit in not just European cars but most if not all developed markets.

 

[Swede_mike]

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

 

What a joke!

Volvo is on the fourth or fith generation, it works flawless and is many many times better than this Toyota crap.

My Volvo can drive all by itself with all the sensors and is doing that very well.

Try a Volvo and you'll see what I mean.

Components could be manufactured by Continental but the implementation!

http://www.volvocars.com/us/about/our-innovations/intellisafe

This is how Volvo handles condensation:

 

[Martin23]

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

indeed the system supplied to Toyota is supposedly an updated/upgraded version of it for which Toyota are the initial customer (so I guess get to field test the system for initial flaws ...)

Yes I agree Scott - as in many spheres of life its the customer who gets to do the field test and expeose the flaws.  When I was working (in international business equipment) the customers always found out more, more quickly, about the products than we did.....

[Terry Parrott]

Well I'm fed up with having to drive a car with so many TSS faults, on 1st Feb my local dealer and Toyota GB will get a final 7 day warning, thereafter I shall be commencing legal action.

 

[estate]

Whatever happened to Toyota's approach to built quality? Thier principle can be broken down into a few simple steps;

1. Discover an abnormality

2. STOP

3. Fix the immediate problem

4. Investigate and correct root cause. 

It would appear this approach, that served them well for a very long time hasn't reached these shores.