Toyota Safety Sense

[Heidfirst]

30 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

Yes I agree Scott - as in many spheres of life its the customer who gets to do the field test and expeose the flaws.  When I was working (in international business equipment) the customers always found out more, more quickly, about the products than we did.....

I have beta tested both hardware & software for various multi-national companies. Despite many months/years of beta-testing products  beforehand undocumented  issues were always found within weeks of stuff actually going on sale (quite often of the "how did they find that/who would ever try that? " variety. ).

[Martin23]

3 minutes ago, estate said:

Thier principle can be broken down into a few simple steps

Personally I think that its the complexities of Toyota's international bureaucracy that are slowing this down, they seem to have forgotten Ishikawa's quality circle also implies speed of delivery

[Heidfirst]

4 minutes ago, estate said:

Whatever happened to Toyota's approach to built quality? Thier principle can be broken down into a few simple steps;

1. Discover an abnormality

2. STOP

3. Fix the immediate problem

4. Investigate and correct root cause. 

It would appear this approach, that served them well for a very long time hasn't reached these shores. 

how do you fix the problem without first finding the cause?

[Swede_mike]

The cause is very simple, condensation occur when there is enough temperature difference between two surfaces at given %rH.

If they don't know how that works they are really stupid!

[Martin23]

3 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

"how did they find that/who would ever try that? "

Aaah, you can make stuff foolproof, but if you want it to work you need a damnfoolproof  tester, or a user....... 

[Martin23]

1 minute ago, Swede_mike said:

The cause is very simple

I can give you countless examples of people trying to solve the wrong problem because they didn't define the problem in the first place, definining the problem correctly is the absolute first step in any quality process.

[Swede_mike]

It's as simple as this, if you have 50%rH in the cabin at 20 degrees then condensation on the windscreen starts when the surface are below 6-7 degrees really really easy:

[Martin23]

1 minute ago, Martin23 said:

definining the problem correctly is the absolute first step in any quality process

For example:  Condensation is the manifestation of the problem, but what's causing it in the first place?  It could be moisture present when the pod was sealed or it could be fumes given off by the plastic housing (as plastic does when exposed to sunlight) which then condenses onto the screen.....

[Swede_mike]

5 minutes ago, Martin23 said:

For example:  Condensation is the manifestation of the problem, but what's causing it in the first place?  It could be moisture present when the pod was sealed or it could be fumes given off by the plastic housing (as plastic does when exposed to sunlight) which then condenses onto the screen.....

Look again at the post above yours. 

They doesn't know anything of the basics, you must have either air flow or heating threads otherwhise it's going to be condensation!

The closed compartment of TSS makes the windscreen almost cold as outside temperatur.

 

take a can of soda from your fridge, if the temperature is under the mollier point of condensation depending of the air humidity you will have condensation.

[Terry Parrott]

I'm not convinced that it's just condensation. I've had a perfectly clear windscreen in front of the sensor - see photo - an yet still had the 5 TSS alarms. I think the whole system just doesn't work properly and condensation is just one issue.

 

[Swede_mike]

In your case I don't think they have followed the TSB, they should do a calibration and that is time consuming!

Mine worked rather good after the same fix that you've got.

[Martin23]

8 minutes ago, Swede_mike said:

I don't think they have followed the TSB

You may be right Mikael, the TSB invloves serveral hours work followed by calibration followed by another several hours left standing in the workshop, so the whole process takes a day.....

[Terry Parrott]

My car was in all day and I've just had an email from the dealer that they want to inspect the bonding on the heater element. Trouble is, as I said, I've had TSS alarms when the area in front of the sensors had been clear.

[Swede_mike]

Maybe they say that because they know they didn't do as TSB said.

However, the fix is as good they can do without a heating fan or threads in the windscreen ( could be impossible). It's not going to work when humidity is high but far better than before if fitted ok.

[Heidfirst]

4 hours ago, Swede_mike said:

The cause is very simple, condensation occur when there is enough temperature difference between two surfaces at given %rH.

If they don't know how that works they are really stupid!

so in fact your 4 should be 3 & vice versa i.e. find cause & then fix problem

 

4 hours ago, Martin23 said:

Aaah, you can make stuff foolproof, but if you want it to work you need a damnfoolproof  tester, or a user....... 

Also, having had a long association with the military 1 truism is that "nothing is squaddie-proof". 

 

4 hours ago, Martin23 said:

I can give you countless examples of people trying to solve the wrong problem because they didn't define the problem in the first place, definining the problem correctly is the absolute first step in any quality process.

absolutely & sometime solving the symptom (but not the real root cause) results in  other issues ...

[cobh18]

On 29/01/2017 at 0:38 PM, Martin23 said:

I've asked a question using "ask HJ", John .  In the past I've had answers / comments within 24 hours and the man does seem to reply to some in person - and ocassionally enters into a conversation, so here's hoping something will come of this.

Comment on this junk accessory has appeared in the Good/Bad section on the Auris. Much as has been said here, plus a parting shot

"Toyota contends that this shows the system is operating correctly."

Leaf out of the White House book:)

 

[Terry Parrott]

To help the case I have taken to Twitter in a big way. Many people follow @ToyotaGB so I am messaging regularly that TSS doesn't work as advertised and will create multiple alarms on your dashboard. Should grab some attention to the issue!

[cobh18]

Ditto. 

[Martin23]

17 hours ago, cobh18 said:

Leaf out of the White House book

I have used the phrase "Alternate Truths" in my emails to toyota management.....

 

Honest John's reply is as follows:  "This type of radar system cannot work in all conditions and never could, so far better that it informs you it is not functioning than it suddenly slams on the brakes when you least expect it, as has been happening with early renditions of the VAG system"

[cobh18]

HJ seems to be missing some of the point!  There is a random element to the warnings/system disablement. Fog and mist last week, in below zero temps at 518m  and not a squeak. On the same journey, in clear conditions in traffic at elevation of 80m and the system went berserk. Windscreen clear. Others are having problems without any obvious bad weather. On a lighter note, I wonder if the nearby airport radar etc has affected my system? Heading north, Manchester airport on the west only 4 miles away. Will see tomorrow as I'm meant to be going to Manchester again. Tin foil hat to be made!

[cobh18]

Car booked into dealer for another check. Service have not authorised amendment on the lines of the TSB as they say no condensation or codes relating to it have been found, therefore heater mod not relevant. When asked what else it might be, as this points to a ghost in the machine, they were unable to comment. 

 

PS: TSB was said to be confidential. Naughty boy implication. Pointed out they were available to the public for a fee. 

[Terry Parrott]

Just got back from the dealer. They checked the car, the TSB was installed correctly and I have the latest software. During the visit I had a meeting and a drive with the service manager and the dealer manager, I think they are getting the message that there is an issue, but of course they are in the hands of Toyota GB. So I press on, Tweeting daily and legal action from next week.

[Martin23]

28 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

they say no condensation or codes relating to it have been found

When I took my car in for its 2 weeks "let us have it and we'll see if we can reproduce the fault" I was told by the aftersales manager at my dealership that what we call "error messages" or "fault messages" are regarded by the car's CPU as an "alert" and therefore the computer does not record any of these events, not the circumstances that causes them. 

This is one reason why Toyota is scrabbling to understand both the nature of the fault and the environmental conditions when it occurs and their suggestion that I keep a log of events, times of day and environmental conditions.  You and I may say that "Its condesation during cold and or wet weather" but an engineer wants data in order to design and test a solution.  To my mind this certainly shouldn't be rocket science, but its intensely annoying to hear one dealer say the car doesn't record "alerts" and another say it does......

[Martin23]

1 hour ago, cobh18 said:

HJ seems to be missing some of the point

Yes he is.  Maybe if more of us ask use the "Ask HJ" facility on his website he will start to consider what we're saying rather than jumping to conclusions about the nature of the problem?

 

Halfway down this page on the right-hand side: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/

[cobh18]

HJ may have some techs on his staff but he has sales background. He could be useful though.  Will put something up on the link.

 

Re codes: service adviser thinks they may be recorded, or at least the conditions giving rise to the code. I'll speak to the technician on the TSS calibration side, who has been happy to chat about this issue.