Toyota Safety Sense

[cobh18]

2 hours ago, Martin23 said:

Halfway down this page on the right-hand side: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/

OK: have raised a question with HJ. Point made:

"Dealer to recheck calibration, but I thought HJ ought to know that it is not just adverse weather causing the fault."  

[cobh18]

HJ interim reply: "Thank you. I've added this to the car by car entry and await further comment from the Toyota dealer."

[cobh18]

On 01/02/2017 at 9:35 AM, cobh18 said:

HJ seems to be missing some of the point!  There is a random element to the warnings/system disablement. Fog and mist last week, in below zero temps at 518m  and not a squeak. On the same journey, in clear conditions in traffic at elevation of 80m and the system went berserk. Windscreen clear. Others are having problems without any obvious bad weather. On a lighter note, I wonder if the nearby airport radar etc has affected my system? Heading north, Manchester airport on the west only 4 miles away. Will see tomorrow as I'm meant to be going to Manchester again. Tin foil hat to be made!

Tin foil hat NBG. 

Further log of errors on TSS. Already emailed to the dealer.  Fully expect nil response….

 

2 February 2017

 

Journey from Buxton to Manchester

 

Left at 0945 via Cat and Fiddle as on 27/1.  7C at highest point 518m. Moderate rain and strong breeze. Visibility clear.

 

No error messages until in the slow traffic on A34 in almost exactly the same section of roadworks as before. Roughly SK93PH  Temperature 8C, no rain, clear visibility.

 

Warning extinguished itself, but repeated 6 times in all on the A34. 

 

Return journey at 1445 via Cheadle and Woodford avoiding the A34 jams. No error messages at all. 

Dry, with light rain approaching Cat and Fiddle.  Visibility OK. Temperature at start 11C, and 9C in Buxton.

 

 

[Martin23]

8 minutes ago, cobh18 said:

Further log of errors on TSS. Already emailed to the dealer.

John, I'd suggest you email your log to Greg Culshaw (greg.culshaw@tgb.toyota.co.uk) he's Head of Quality for Toyota GB.  Thanks to (I think it was) Terry Parrot who posted his email address) I have been in email contact with Greg and have had a conversation.

Greg is responsible for inputting the "Voice of the Customer" into Toyota's world-wide review of the TSS issue and as such has included emails I have written in his submissions to what I assume is a Toyota working group on the subject.  What you have to bear in mind (I believe) is that Toyota does not understand the circumstances in which the alerts are triggered.  As Head of Quality Greg can't fix the problem, but he does need our help in providing the evidence that they clearly lack.....

-------------------------------------

On the TSS front I drove 5 miles this morning in driving rain at 8 degrees and daylight with the aircon off - without issue.  The car spent 10 minutes stationary with the rear hatch open (in said rain) while I loaded up some stuff from my motohome.  2 miles into the return journey and after I noticed the rear window was misting up the alerts started (and I switched demist to on).  The centre panel message disappeared after about 5 seconds as it now should, but the flashing light continued for another 4 miles 8 minutes, by which time I'd already switched off demist, but left aircon on.  I think I'm going to have to put up with having the aircon always on in an attempt to see if this prevents the alerts.  Off shopping this afternoon on a similar length trip + hand car wash so we'll see what happens!

[cobh18]

Have sent a note to your contact. Thanks for the lead, Terry and Martin.  Will get in touch with CEO if necessary, after the dealer has examined the car again. 

[cobh18]

Update. Response from Greg Culshaw: 

I have spoken with Richard McKay at Macclesfield and I see that you are booked in on the 7th of Feb with the team there. I have suggested to Richard that they do follow the Technical Service Bulletin as part of the bulletin is related to software logic regarding the system messages that are displayed. (My emphasis)

If it is OK with you I would like to follow up with you afterwards to get some feedback on the difference you experience.

Please feel free to contact me in the meantime should you need to."

 

Progress at last. 

[Terry Parrott]

The TSB just adds a heater which isn't man enough so doesn't stop any alarms. The software flash just removes the textual alarm to demist your windscreen all other alarms both textual and amber remain. 

So don't get too excited!

[cobh18]

So disappointed:) But, for the first time, there is more than radio silence, which is a small step in the right direction. 

[Martin23]

On 03/02/2017 at 1:28 PM, Terry Parrott said:

The software flash just removes the textual alarm to demist your windscreen all other alarms both textual and amber remain

I was told that the software update  should also provide a solid red warning light when the pre-collision system is disabled and limit the number of flashes from the yellow light.

I haven't see any solid lights, red* or other and the yellow light continues to flash for duration of the "event".  The fact that the software update did not result in these behaviours has apparently been passed back to the TSS software team.  (* in fact I'm not aware of a red light anywhere on the dashboard, perhaps after 10 months of ownership I ought to read the manual again!)

[Terry Parrott]

I too have spoken with Greg Culshaw, however although he sounds sympathetic in practise nothing changes. I still get my flashing Amber lights when ever the TSS system isn't working, so that's constantly when the outside temperature is below about 3C AND even with a clear windscreen.

For me the issue is very simple. The system is driven by lasers. Lasers are VERY susceptible to cold. When driving in temps below 3C the wind-chill factor of the air stream onto the windscreen is huge. At 3C at 30 MPH it is -4C, -2C at 60 MPH it is -13C, that small heater will never cope. The heater is there I think not just for condensation but also to warm up the laser so it works. This is why I've had alarms when I've had a clear windscreen but its cold outside!.

The whole design of TSS is rubbish and was NEVER tested in a climatic chamber.

[bathtub tom]

45 minutes ago, Terry Parrott said:

When driving in temps below 3C the wind-chill factor of the air stream onto the windscreen is huge. At 3C at 30 MPH it is -4C, -2C at 60 MPH it is -13C,

Wind chill doesn't apply to inanimate objects. A thermometer doesn't care about wind speed, it measures temperature.

From Wiki: Wind-chill or windchill, (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of air.

[Terry Parrott]

Strictly speaking you are correct, however that is the effective temperature of the windscreen directly in front of the sensors, thats why the lasers wont fire up in cold weather. Just Google it, you will see!

Volvo have cracked the issue since they have a sizeable heater in front of their sensors! The small thing Toyota have is NEVER going to work.

[Swede_mike]

Haven't had a single problem with my Volvo yet, so it works very well.

Even in foggy conditions and when the white lines is hard too see the car can drive by itself.

[cobh18]

Which model Volvo do you drive SM? Might need one. Long time since we drove one: 240 saloon auto. 3 speed. Luxury! Very functional but 25mpg. Never more, never less.  

 

[Swede_mike]

V90 D3 AWD 2017.

Fed up with my Auris TSS problems so I ordered the Volvo after 8 months of Auris trouble.

[cobh18]

Bit of a jump in size!  More the V40 for us. Petrol, proper winterisation, and AWD would be nice, when the boat comes in:)

[Swede_mike]

My friend picked up his new C-HR today, beautiful car, and it seems to be a completely different TSS, let's hope it will work better.

[estate]

As the C-HR is manufactured in Turkey, does anyone know if it's only UK manufactured vehicles, the Avensis & Auris that has problems with the TSS? 

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 minutes ago, estate said:

As the C-HR is manufactured in Turkey, does anyone know if it's only UK manufactured vehicles, the Avensis & Auris that has problems with the TSS? 

The beginning of this thread was regarding a Yaris which had problems with TSS, and the Yaris is manufactured in France. It seems more likely that models where TSS has been added partway through their life, have issues, rather than those where TSS was fitted at the start (eg Prius, C-HR).

[Martin23]

16 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Those where TSS was fitted at the start (eg Prius, C-HR).

Yes, I had a 2016 Prius for 2 weeks while my Avensis was "in for testing" and the TSS was faultless in all weathers & conditions.

Had more TSS alerts last night - 4c & dry, heating set to recommended 22c with the aircon on, so there is no way a simple change of habit on the heating system will prevent it. 

[Terry Parrott]

This morning I have driven from my house in Farnborough to Newhaven in East Sussex, a journey of 70 miles and taking just shy of two hours including a coffee stop. Throughout the entire journey I had no TSS and the usual dashboard full of alarms. The outside temperature was +5C, ALL windows in the car were clear, I had the Air Con on, inside temp set to 22C Auto, and still no TSS. I even stopped and the area in front of the sensors was clear with NO condensation what so ever. Yet again the TSS system on my car has demonstrated that it is not “fit for purpose”. I am seriously looking forward to seeing Toyota GB, in open court with the public and media present, trying to justify that a safety system that failed to operate in the balmy conditions this morning for 70 miles and two hours, is “fit for purpose”. Why did my TSS not work this morning? Toyota GB, and Inchcape, really do need to seriously address the significant issues with the TSS in my car. Your TSS system is driving me nuts!!!!!!!

[Bill_F]

As the OP I must say that the Yaris has only had problems in very low sun reflecting off the windscreen coming at an oblique angle which I suspect, with experience, blinds the camera and this has happened twice in the 18 months I have had it. The only other time the warning has come up is when I have started up (to warm while I cleared the car) when the windscreen was covered by snow Even when the inside is really steamed up it does not fault.

So I suspect that the Yaris is working within spec and I wonder if the more vertical windscreen means less likelihood of diffraction / dazzle from sun and French manufacture has different bonding. LDA also works perfectly.

[estate]

47 minutes ago, Bill_F said:

As the OP I must say that the Yaris has only had problems in very low sun reflecting off the windscreen coming at an oblique angle which I suspect, with experience, blinds the camera and this has happened twice in the 18 months I have had it. The only other time the warning has come up is when I have started up (to warm while I cleared the car) when the windscreen was covered by snow Even when the inside is really steamed up it does not fault.

So I suspect that the Yaris is working within spec and I wonder if the more vertical windscreen means less likelihood of diffraction / dazzle from sun and French manufacture has different bonding. LDA also works perfectly.

So does this mean that it is only UK manufactured vehicles that have the serious consistent problem, as vehicles like the RAV4 and Land Cruiser, have also had them retro fitted? If correct, is it a poorly designed unit, that needs to be replaced and Toyota GB are reluctant to own up to this and initiate a costly recall, or if the unit is working fine on other vehicles, then it may be the method and process that is used to fit them to the Avensis & Auris that is the problem. Whatever the problem is, it’s not going away.

[Devon Aygo]

1 hour ago, estate said:

So does this mean that it is only UK manufactured vehicles that have the serious consistent problem, as vehicles like the RAV4 and Land Cruiser, have also had them retro fitted? If correct, is it a poorly designed unit, that needs to be replaced and Toyota GB are reluctant to own up to this and initiate a costly recall, or if the unit is working fine on other vehicles, then it may be the method and process that is used to fit them to the Avensis & Auris that is the problem. Whatever the problem is, it’s not going away.

 

No the build location has no bearing on the TSS forward vision issues, that can affect Aygo, Yaris, Auris, Avensis and Verso all use what Toyota refer to as TSS-c which uses a combination of windscreen mounted laser & cameras.

Other models such as Prius, Prius +, C-HR, Rav4, Landcruiser, Hilux, Proace use what Toyota refer to as TSS-p which replaces the lasers with millimetric radar & cameras, the radar is much better at object & distance detection and allows the addition of radar cruise & pedestrian detection it is also no where near as sensitive as the lasers used in TSS-c to windscreen obstruction ( condensation, dirt etc ) light intrusion ( headlights, streetlights, sun etc ) or weather conditions 

The single biggest difference between laser and radar is cost the TSS-c camera/laser alone costs £900-£1200 the TSS-p camera £900-£1300 then add the millimetric radar unit £2000-£4000 this effectively prices the TSS-p out of the older models using TSS-c where the cars would need significant redesigns of the front end to accept the radar and the smaller models where it would just be too expensive. All of the models using TSS-p are new so the radar could be incorporated from the very outset or already had the Radar in place for radar cruise ( Rav4 & Lcruiser )

None of this excuses the issues TSS-C is giving

 

[Martin23]

8 minutes ago, Devon Aygo said:

None of this excuses the issues TSS-C is giving

Agree 100%, and big thanks for the detailed explanation of the different systems - as it's made up my mind that if they can't fix my Avensis then I'll be negotiating with Toyota GB for a BIG discount on a C-HR....... such a shame as I really love my Avensis, but if it can't be fixed then this seems to be the line of least cost to get rid of the problem