Rav 4 2010 (Dec) 35,000 Miles; Injectors All Failed

[Jetjack]

I've had this car from new, it is well looked after. Only 35K mileage.

On Dec 25 very suddenly (no warning whatsoever) huge noise like rocks in the engine, white smoke, lost all electrics. Fortunately going at 25mph on quiet road. No steering, had to wait in centre of road with hood up and triangle, for breakdown truck.

To make matters more complicated - I am currently in Spain.

Car taken to nearest Toyota dealer.

On Dec 28 they told me 1 injector was 'leaking'.

On Jan 8 this changed to 4 injectors were ruined. Repair cost Eur2000.

Their verdict was 'dirty fuel'.

HOWEVER......................I have used same gas station here for 10 years. (I spend winter months here) I have all my receipts going back months. We have asked around the town mechanic garages (this is a fairly small community, most people in this town of 12,000 people use this garage) to enquire if any other incidences of 'dirty diesel' occurred in the past weeks. There are none.

Question 1: Is it feasible that I am the ONLY one?

Question 2: I have some of the fuel and could send it for analysis but have no idea where?

I asked for the old injectors . The garage refused to give them to me as they said I had been given a 'part-exchange' rate on these injectors and I would have to give them a further 600 euros if I wanted to take them myself - they planned on sending them back to the manufacturer for a re-furb.

Being in Spain I do not have the luxury of getting a 2nd opinion on the dealer's verdict. I had to drive the car away and the only way I could do this was to get the work done as specified.

I see that fuel injectors were a problem in older Rav4s. But this car is newer and with far less mileage.

Question 3: IF 'dirty fuel' - and one mechanic said it was 'humidity' - then how can I avoid it happening again. It was a very unpleasant breakdown and could have been very dangerous if I had been travelling at speed on a motorway.

I have not run the tank low (therefore, sediment etc. should not have occurred) I cannot see how water or humidity could enter the fuel tank as they have a double fastening.

Toyota UK were helpful - I was attended by Toyota Roadside Assistance and Toyota Customer Services in UK and they were on the phone to me regularly. However, Toyota Spain were very UNHELPFUL and have not answered any of the pertinent questions - in fact there is a deafening silence.

Has this happened to anyone else? IF it is 'bad fuel', and yet your fuel comes from a reputable nationwide commercial source (yet nobody else has a problem) how do you avoid it happening?

I am looking for some answers,.............................................

[TomdeGuerre]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Buddy, lots of disturbing aspects about your atory.

Question 1: Is it feasible that I am the ONLY one?

>>> I wouldn't think so, the odds of that happening are astronomical.

Question 2: I have some of the fuel and could send it for analysis but have no idea where?

>>> Don't know of any independent testing labs in Spain but don't see what it would [rove anyway. There are crystals you can get to put in a sample of fuel which will detect the presence of any water. Do you know anyone who works airside at the local airport?

I asked for the old injectors . The garage refused to give them to me as they said I had been given a 'part-exchange' rate on these injectors and I would have to give them a further 600 euros if I wanted to take them myself - they planned on sending them back to the manufacturer for a re-furb.

>>> That sounds about right, exchange scheme doesn't let you have the old injectors back.

I see that fuel injectors were a problem in older Rav4s. But this car is newer and with far less mileage.

>>> Can't answer that, I'm sure that somebody on here can though.

Question 3: IF 'dirty fuel' - and one mechanic said it was 'humidity' - then how can I avoid it happening again. It was a very unpleasant breakdown and could have been very dangerous if I had been travelling at speed on a motorway.

>>> As I am sure you know, in countries with high temperature and high humidity it's better to keep your fuel tank as full as possible to avoid condensation levels building up overnight. Again i would refer to the crystals you can get to put in a sample of fuel which will detect the presence of any water prior to refuelling.

Given all they said about the fuel, did they change your fuel filter?

[Jetjack]

Thank you very much for all that comment. All helps clarify my thinking.

And NO, they did not change the fuel filter - that was something which I did consider may have been wrong.

Not speaking fluent spanish (although I have some) I am at a disadvantage.

Toyota Dealer has said to run it for another 3-4000 miles and get oil and filter change then (I quote 'to be sure') but this is not the same as a fuel filter change (is it?)

Ref your answer about 'humidity' - I appreciate that info, however car has only been here since November and temps are not that high. I haven't run tank very low on any occasion.

There are two thoughts that I am trying to work through: was it the fault of the fuel, or the fault of the injectors? It would be in the interests of Toyota to blame the fuel. It is in the interests of the fuel company to deny any responsibility. I'm the one with the Euro2000 bill. And fear of it happening again!

Thanks again - unfortunately, I don't know anyone airside at an airport here (although possibly when back in UK). Your point that it would not prove anything is interesting. It would help me decide if fuel was indeed responsible. Then Toyota would look good to me again.

I had a bad experience with this spanish Toyota dealer and the UK Customer Service are still waiting for any response to their enquiries I don't expect any interesting answers. If they don't want to explain further (whether to me or London/Madrid/European Head Office) then they probably won't. It's easy for them to deflect blame - whether or not it is a true verdict, I am still unsure.

As you noted, it seems unlikely that I would be the ONLY person who had this problem. I have all my fuel receipts going back 2 months and this one garage is the only one I have used. I have asked in the town and in the garage, there have been no other reported incidents. This is why I remain dubious about the 'dirty fuel' verdict.

Again..............Thank You. Your thoughts much appreciated.

[Mike169]

Hi jack.

This all sounds very suspicious to me and I am tending to think the garage was just trying to extract as much money from your bank account as they could.

The fact they didn't even change the fuel filter I feel spells it out that they were telling porkies.

Have you got a code reader than plugs into the OBD2 socket, you can buy them from Amazon for say £30, worth the investment, can save you £££££££ in the long run. I would be inclined to go to a Toyota dealer here in the UK on your return and ask if the injectors have been changed or even ask them to see if any fault codes have been displayed.

I have something similar to this, hope the link works ok.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007XE8C74?keywords=obd2%20readers&qid=1453305849&ref_=sr_1_3&sr=8-3

Mike​

[Jetjack]

Thanks, Mike

I do plan to visit my local Dealer in UK asap after getting back.

Thanks for the link to the Amazon site for a code reader - to be honest, it won't help me right now, but perhaps later.

I am asking around to find out more if there is ANY other vehicle who suffered similar, but so far drawn a blank again, and feel it is looking more likely that the Spanish Toyota Dealer is the villain of the piece - however, until I get a 2nd opinion from the UK Dealer who has looked after the car from new, not much more I can do.

Except ask good people like you as to what you think. Which helps. Thanks.

[Mike169]

Hi jack.

I think you and I have the same car, it is now just 2 shapes 'old' as a new shape has only just arrived in the showrooms, mine is known as a 4.3.5 model, a bit newer than yours being a very late 2012 with a 150 whatevers (BHP) engine but what I am saying is Toyota had ironed out all the faults when they produced this engine and as far as I am concerned it's pretty bulletproof as long as it does a decent run once a week to clear out all the carbon from the various 'after valves' in the system, i.e. it cleans itself out. I have been on a couple of Toyota forums and I have never heard of all 4 injectors failing, diesel, mine is a D-Cat, I am unsure if yours is? I run mine on the top brand of diesel fuel to clean the various components. Yes I do think you have been ripped off and once you are back in the UK and checked by a UK dealership, even if you have to pay just for having it looked at I think you have a case. You may find this link useful..............................................................................................

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=toyota+customer+services+uk&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=qg6gVsrHOIWgUZqsrNAD​

I/we would be interested to know how this story unfolds.

Regards, Mike.

[Jetjack]

Thanks again. Yes, my car is a D-CAT

The Dealer told me NOT to use the top brand of diesel (i.e. Super) because those have less oil content and therefore are not good for the engine.

Do you disagree? In my manual it does not recommend anything other than regular diesel. I am happy to use the super fuels, but there has been conflicting advice.

I also asked this Spanish Dealer if it should have the engine 'cleaner' I've seen recommended every 10,000 miles and, again, they said 'No'.

I will ask all these questions of both my UK Dealer and Customer Service in UK. The Customer Service are in touch with me because they, also, have enquired as to why the estimate was 1 diesel injector replaced, followed by all 4 had failed. They have had very little response from Madrid Customer Service who were liaising with the Dealer. Communication has been dire.

I have complained strongly about lack of communication and this has now been referred to European Customer Service Head Office, so I hope they will throw some light but, unfortunately, I suspect once the story is set (i.e. it is my fault for using 'dirty fuel') then they are unlikely to change it. Added to which, they are Spanish and will stick together. I am a foreigner. Simple but true.

I have also asked at the garage (nobody else has had an incident and, the town, it is on a major highway, and a 24 hr service station with carwashes etc.) I have now filled in a complaint form for the local council/authority (Junta de Andalucía) to say I have been told by the authorised Toyota dealer that I had dirty fuel. I have two months worth of receipts to show I did not shop for fuel anywhere else, so it still seems very odd to me that nobody else had a problem.

It will be a few weeks before I am back in UK. I hope all goes well until then, when I will check it in to my Toyota dealer for their checks/oil and filter change and review.

And I will definitely keep you posted. Thanks for your time and advice.

[Mike169]

Hi jack.

I think you have been told the biggest load of rubbish ever. On You Tube they have video's of cars that have been run on usual diesel and those that have been run on the dearer top quality stuff, the difference between the two is the dearer diesel has more cleaning agents in it which in itself does not combust but keeps the internals of your engine cleaner, like the EGR valve which some people even blank off, kits are available on Ebay/Amazon, some swear by doing it, others say leave it alone.

D-Cat's diesels need a good say 40 mile trip every week to stop the 'Cat' and EGR valve from clogging up to allow it to self clean hence the 5th injector which is why D-Cat versions are less economical that a normal 4 injector engine as the 5th injector uses diesel to burn off excessive deposits as far as I understand.

On You Tube they have examples of diesel Rav's run on usual fuel and those run on super diesel, the diesel ones are always cleaner inside. Some people I know run 3 tankful's of regular diesel and every 4th tankful they use the dearer stuff just to give the engine an 'internal wash', sometimes called regenerating.

I was a diesel technician for many years and what the additives do be it in the top quality fuel or say 500ml bottles do bought from shops is to clean the diesel internal system. Here is a very heavy duty way of doing it... http://terraclean.co.uk/%C2'> If you car has just been used for short local runs it will get coked up, the additives or Terraclean will sort many problems out.

Here in the UK supermarket fuel is usually cheaper per litre even though they (The tankers) fill up at the major oil refineries, BP, Shell or whoever as I believe they add less additives, cleaning agents as it costs money. A friend of mine has seen damage done to engines and he ask's if they use supermarket fuel, if the answer is yes then basically they saved £1 per refill but then cost £100's in repair bills, just my opinion but I believe it.

You are welcome to my time and advise, helping others at times I feel is very rewarding.

Regards Mike.

[Jetjack]

Yes, I was told already about the supermarket fuels. But I don't use them. I use Esso/BP/Total in UK and a national brand, Cepsa, in Spain,

It's valuable to hear your thoughts on the super diesels. That makes sense to me. I deliberately asked them about this, and you saw what their answers to me were. I have now forwarded those questions to Customer Services Toyota UK, but I go along with your sentiments, and would never compromise an engine for the sake of a few pence. Very interesting that you have the background in diesel, you speak with experience and knowledge. I wish I had known this info earlier.

I also do some good long runs quite regularly, especially here in spain.

The reasoning I am now given by Toyota is that the carbon/sediment could have been in the tank for a long time.

The Spanish have now come back to Toyota UK and said the fuel was a funny colour and they said 'like 'biofuel'. This diesel is a yellowish colour, which looks normal to me. And Toyota UK have said the sample of fuel I have will be no good unless it is kept airtight and in a blackout condition as light will contaminate. So I am unable to guarantee to return to UK with it in a good enough condition for reliable testing (it may already have suffered due to light, it is in an airtight bottle, kept in a dark garage, but they think that is not good enough)

So, basically, I am stuffed! I will take the car to UK Dealer for inspection on return - here's hoping that it doesn't have any problems before then. Sounds like I will be using premium diesel from now on. (too little, too late!) But still very p'off with the Spanish Toyota Dealer and think had I gone to ANY garage my bill would have been cheaper and my experience less frustrating.

Cheers, Mike,

[TomdeGuerre]

Yes, I was told already about the supermarket fuels. But I don't use them. I use Esso/BP/Total in UK and a national brand, Cepsa, in Spain,

It's valuable to hear your thoughts on the super diesels. That makes sense to me. I deliberately asked them about this, and you saw what their answers to me were. I have now forwarded those questions to Customer Services Toyota UK, but I go along with your sentiments, and would never compromise an engine for the sake of a few pence. Very interesting that you have the background in diesel, you speak with experience and knowledge. I wish I had known this info earlier.

I also do some good long runs quite regularly, especially here in spain.

The reasoning I am now given by Toyota is that the carbon/sediment could have been in the tank for a long time.

The Spanish have now come back to Toyota UK and said the fuel was a funny colour and they said 'like 'biofuel'. This diesel is a yellowish colour, which looks normal to me. And Toyota UK have said the sample of fuel I have will be no good unless it is kept airtight and in a blackout condition as light will contaminate. So I am unable to guarantee to return to UK with it in a good enough condition for reliable testing (it may already have suffered due to light, it is in an airtight bottle, kept in a dark garage, but they think that is not good enough)

So, basically, I am stuffed! I will take the car to UK Dealer for inspection on return - here's hoping that it doesn't have any problems before then. Sounds like I will be using premium diesel from now on. (too little, too late!) But still very p'off with the Spanish Toyota Dealer and think had I gone to ANY garage my bill would have been cheaper and my experience less frustrating.

Cheers, Mike,

That's what I meant when I said it wouldn't prove much if you got the fuel sample analysed. I wasn't being dismissive, i was thinking from a product liability point of view. The filling station would never have accepted the results of an uncontrolled sample being taken and held in unknown storage conditions. I grant you it would have been interesting from your own point of view though.

I'd say you're a pretty determined sort of fellow and you're not going to let go of this too easily. I think you're 100% right and wish you every success. Your biggest asset is to have Toyota UK involved, they're far more likely to get final resolution to this so whatever you do, don't tick them off.

[TomdeGuerre]

Hi Jack.

I think you have been told the biggest load of rubbish ever. On You Tube they have video's of cars that have been run on usual diesel and those that have been run on the dearer top quality stuff, the difference between the two is the dearer diesel has more cleaning agents in it which in itself does not combust but keeps the internals of your engine cleaner, like the EGR valve which some people even blank off, kits are available on Ebay/Amazon, some swear by doing it, others say leave it alone.

D-Cat's diesels need a good say 40 mile trip every week to stop the 'Cat' and EGR valve from clogging up to allow it to self clean hence the 5th injector which is why D-Cat versions are less economical that a normal 4 injector engine as the 5th injector uses diesel to burn off excessive deposits as far as I understand.

On You Tube they have examples of diesel Rav's run on usual fuel and those run on super diesel, the diesel ones are always cleaner inside. Some people I know run 3 tankful's of regular diesel and every 4th tankful they use the dearer stuff just to give the engine an 'internal wash', sometimes called regenerating.

I was a diesel technician for many years and what the additives do be it in the top quality fuel or say 500ml bottles do bought from shops is to clean the diesel internal system. Here is a very heavy duty way of doing it... If you car has just been used for short local runs it will get coked up, the additives or Terraclean will sort many problems out.

Here in the UK supermarket fuel is usually cheaper per litre even though they (The tankers) fill up at the major oil refineries, BP, Shell or whoever as I believe they add less additives, cleaning agents as it costs money. A friend of mine has seen damage done to engines and he ask's if they use supermarket fuel, if the answer is yes then basically they saved £1 per refill but then cost £100's in repair bills, just my opinion but I believe it.

You are welcome to my time and advise, helping others at times I feel is very rewarding.

Regards Mike.

Interesting to know you were a diesel tecchy Mike, so was I. My time goes back to working with in-line and rotary diesel injection pumps waaaaaay before the modern PD or CRD systems with fuel pressures approaching 2,000 atmospheres. I'm trying to recall, when we did Gardner diesel injectors they were set at around 160 to 180 atmospheres. Happy days.

On the subject of diesel fuel, when I run a diesel i buy supermarket diesel, usually from Tesco(which is, i am assured, Esso fuel). Not to say I'm right but that's my choice. I think the most important thing is the usage of the vehicle. Short runs and cold starts kill a diesel, especially with the modern emission controls stuff fitted to them.

[Mike169]

Hi Tom.

If you ever were to see in a petrol refinery, any refinery that is, you will see Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc tankers filling up from the same big tank so to start with it's all the same be it Shell fuel, BP fuel etc. It's the additives that each company adds to the fuel afterwards that makes the difference, i am 99% sure this is correct. This is why supermarket fuel is cheaper, it has less 'extra's in it put in afterwards hence how you get standard, super, nitro or whatever you want to name it, basically he dearer the fuel the more chemicals it has in it, mostly cleaning agents. Of course these agents cost money so the dearest fuel has the most chemicals in it which in itself doesn't actually ignite but keep the internals of the system cleaner.

Mike.

[Heidfirst]

On the subject of diesel fuel, when I run a diesel i buy supermarket diesel, usually from Tesco(which is, i am assured, Esso fuel).

In Scotland pretty much all fuel comes from Grangemouth refinery which is owned/operated by Ineos.

As has been said already my understanding is that it is the additives which make individual companies fuels distinctive.

[Jetjack]

To Mike and others who posted advice on this topic of 'dirty fuel' in Spain:......................

The outcome - after 4 weeks - has been that Toyota Customer Services UK, despite trying very hard on my behalf and emailing on an almost daily basis, also came across a brick wall when dealing with the Spanish dealer and also the Spanish Customer Services in Madrid. 

You may recall, Spanish Toyota did not change the fuel filter and when asked why, said it was 'unnecessary'.  Toyota Tech Department in UK have said (as well as everyone else) that in the case of diagnosis of fuel contamination, this should be done:  4 injectors were changed, the system flushed, tubes and pipes changed, total bill Euro 2000.  But not the fuel filter.

The dealer and the head office in Madrid have refused to comment on why they did not change it, only to say it was not necessary.  They were pushed but said no more.

The car was off-road for nearly 3 weeks.  Yes, over the Christmas holidays, but an extra week was taken.  The cost per remanufactured injector was Euro275.  When I asked for return of the old injectors they refused unless I gave them  Euro150 per injector.  i.e. a total price per injector of Euro 425.   I checked with UK and they said I had been given a 'part-exchange' price - i.e. a reduction - and this is normal practise within Toyota.  However, I think it very bad practise to provide remanufactured injectors at this price.

I feel ripped off.  The Tech Department in UK has asked for the Denzo reports on the damaged injectors.  They have not been forthcoming.  They are the only evidence of what actually did happen and the Dealer is not answering Toyota UK requests for them.

There is still a question mark over what really did happen and two independent engineers have said that the symptoms (no warning, no previous running rough, just sudden huge noises from engine (like rocks got loose in there) and white smoke pouring out of the exhaust before losing all power) is unusual and the other scenario they put forward is that it could have been a timing malfunction and this would have been down the to onboard computer.

We will never know because those Denzo reports are not available.  The Tech department Toyota UK states to me in writing that dirty fuel is a problem in southern Europe and that many garages/dealers here will - as a default position - blame fuel and change injectors.  It is the easiest solution.

Add to which, I have taken legal advice, and this is:  being on English registration plates and filing a complaint against a Spanish business will likely fail.  Bias in favour of the Spanish business, and not really concerned about the foreign car because it is unlikely to be a regular customer.

For sure, it will not be a customer with Toyota Spain.  Probably with Toyota elsewhere.  Toyota UK have offered an extended warranty, at half price, which I have turned down.  I am convinced I would have received better attention at a lower cost elsewhere.  I have been advised that Toyota dealerships here (along with other manufacturers) are franchises, not Dealers, and this makes a difference.  These guys wear Toyota uniforms and bill Toyota prices, but do not conform to the same standards from my experience.  Toyota UK said they have NO real influence over the situation - other countries are autonomous - and have to accept what their 'colleagues' tell them.

An interesting, if unpleasant, situation.  I definitely am seeking other input and will take the car to an independent garage here for fuel filter change, + oil and oil filter change (recommended by Toyota as the 'dirty fuel' may have spilled into the engine during works). 

Thank you for your input and advice, it was helpful during the confusion.   You clarified some things for me. 

Tip:   beware different scenarios when in foreign climes!

[FROSTYBALLS]

Most dealerships in the UK are franchises rather than being owned by the manufacturer. Contractual arrangements would be between the vehicle importing/sales organisation (eg. Toyota GB, Toyota Spain, etc) and the franchisee (the dealer). So Toyota GB (the importing/sales organisation for the UK and Malta) would have no real influence over Toyota Spain (the importing/sales organisation for Spain). Also contractual law governing the franchises will be different in the UK to Spain.

Some vehicle importing organisations do have directly owned dealers, but sometimes this was due to dealer groups becoming bankrupt, and, in order to protect sales, were bought out by the importing organisation (eg Heartland Ford).

 

[Mike169]

Hi jack.

From my diesel teckkie experience, I repaired trucks for many years and have changed 100's of injectors over the years.

The difference now is the injectors have to be coded to the engine where as in my earlier days you just unbolted one, fitted the replacement, cranked the engine to bleed out the air usually done by leaving the injector pipe loose at the injector and when it starts squirting out you tightened up the pipe/union.

Any dirty fuel vehicles the procedure would be, and I have no reason to see why it is different now would be to drain the fuel tank, even removing it if necessary to pour the fuel out, refit tank, fit a new fuel filter, fill up with good new fuel, bleed the system through and crank the engine until fuel spits from each loosened pipe ending up at the injectors and by the time the clean fuel has got this far then it should start up ok. Once the engine had warmed up, as Toyota have suggested then change the engine oil and filter, job done.

On our actual models they are known to have a weakness with the fuel tank and the filler pipe due to rust, the quality of the metal could be better so that would be the only added expense.

Off the top of my head if you split the bill in two halves without a tank and pipe change you are looking at around £400 and double than if a new tank and pipe fitted, anything over £1000 is just taking the proverbial out of you.

Yes your story has so many 'holes' in it, not written by you of course but the course of action the garage took and again repeating myself not changing the fuel filter is just not done otherwise the dirty fuel in the filter and they are quite large on our model will take a couple of minutes to go through the reconditioned injectors they fitted making them contaminated again which to me proves they didn't warrant changing in the first place. 

If the injectors were not changed the clean stuff coming through the system after the fuel filter had been changed would flush out the dirty fuel.

Do I think you have been ripped off, yes I do, what course of action you take or Toyota's help/response to you then I have no idea but I hope you keep us up to date on any developments.

Mike.