2009 D4-D

[Notamused]

Hi all,

Am I correct to think that the well known issues with these engines (re: Charliefarleys thread) is largely sorted after December 2008.?

Or.......

Have engines later than this suffered with similar problems.?

Any info appreciated.

T.I.A.

[philip42h]

That is my understanding, but be aware that cars registered through 2009 may include engines built prior to December 2008. My March 2009 registered SR180 would be a case in point (but it's worth stating that I never had a moment's concern / issue with that particular engine).

So:

• A 180/177 bhp engine will almost certainly be at risk unless it has been rebuilt
• A 140/136 bhp engine may or may not be at risk depending upon the build date
• A 150 bhp engine will not be at risk from this particular issue

Or at least that is my understanding / conclusion ...

[NORTHERN_LAD]

I have a 2009, 59 plate RAV with the 150 engine. 75K on the clock with no problems so far. Great car to drive.

[Notamused]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated.

Any other opinions or views on this.?

[Ogster]

I have a 2008 RAV4 T180 DCat. What exactly is it at risk from?

[Heidfirst]

 

Bear in mind that only a very small % of vehicles actually develop the head/headgasket issue.

[Notamused]

Hi Ogster,

From what I have learnt on it, the 2AD (fitted to your T180 amongst others) engines can be subject to excessive oil consumption, with all sorts of complications resulting from (or rather, underlying) that.

Some people have had such problems that it has resulted in serious failures. Following on from these problems, Toyota appear to have offered a warranty engine rebuild / replacement, for cars that are less than 7 years old with less than 110,00 miles (I think), should they present with a certain set of identifiable symptoms.

Apart from that, they seem to be a great car that numerous people I know of speak very highly of. I am hoping that the one I am likely to buy is a good one, but I guess I'll have to wait and see.

 

@ Heidfirst

Yes, I appreciate that this "appears" to be a problem limited to very few vehicles, but, how many owners are out there, who have experienced issues with these engines, that are totally unaware of the problem it can suffer from.? For all we know, some folks may well have paid for work to be carried out on their cars without any knowledge that Toyota may have covered the costs if the right questions had been asked. Alternatively, it's arguable that some owners may be experiencing such issues but in more minor ways that have not yet caused major problems for their cars, but that may well do in the future. Such things are very difficult to measure accurately, as not all owners are equal, both in understanding of what is happening to their cars, or how they maintain them.

 

[Heidfirst]

14 minutes ago, Notamused said:

@Heidfirst

Yes, I appreciate that this "appears" to be a problem limited to very few vehicles, but, how many owners are out there, who have experienced issues with these engines, that are totally unaware of the problem it can suffer from.? For all we know, some folks may well have paid for work to be carried out on their cars without any knowledge that Toyota may have covered the costs if the right questions had been asked. Alternatively, it's arguable that some owners may be experiencing such issues but in more minor ways that have not yet caused major problems for their cars, but that may well do in the future. Such things are very difficult to measure accurately, as not all owners are equal, both in understanding of what is happening to their cars, or how they maintain them.

 

the same series of engines (1AD & 2AD all potentially at risk) are also fitted to Auris & Avensis - both higher volume & probably higher mileage cars than most RAVs. Whilst it is a known issue if it was far more prevalent then it would be a more widely known problem (there would also be a heck of a lot more posts here) & there would be Auris & Avensis breaking down left, right & centre. :P

& bear in mind that the youngest of the engines concerned are now ~7 years old, the oldest nearly 11 - for most if it was going to happen it would have by now.

 

[Notamused]

You have a point, and I am certainly hoping to get a sound and trustworthy car.

Will find out soon.

 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

From later posts in the thread at post 6 above, the seven year/111,846 mile cover for the AD issues was goodwill rather than a warranty.

[Notamused]

Thanks for clarifying Frosty, that's interesting. Surely though if Toyota have done this for some, there is realistic chance of the same being offered to others, especially if the history is all Toyota by a single owner from new.

I guess there's no guarantee but you would have a good argument for them to act favourably, whatever "favourably" may mean should the issue arise.

 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The coverage that Toyota provided required evidence of a reasonable service history and not necessarily Toyota service history. However the time/mileage limit (on a 'whichever occurs first' basis), was strictly adhered to. There have been some owners who have been refused goodwill because one of the limits had been exceeded (ie. the vehicle was over seven years old or had exceeded 111,846 miles) - similar to the Toyota new car warranty which provides cover for 5 years/100,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

[Ogster]

Hmm...well as far as warranty is concerned I will be struggling if it goes t*ts up. At present, I see no evidence of excessive oil consuption or head gasket failure, but what causes this, and are there any measures I can take to reduce the risk - regular oil changes excepted?

Also, are the numbers of vehicles involved truly minor? - it would be interesting to gain an understanding of the % of vehicles involved perhaps. In addition, is the severity of the problem particularly greater for the 2AD than a similar diesel from another manufacturer....the 2 litre offerrings from BMW or VW for example... 

[Notamused]

It's got to be difficult to accurately know just how many vehicles have been, or are likely to be affected still, but, as was pointed out above, if the problem was occurring in the majority of cars fitted with these engines, Toyota would not have the reputation for reliability that they have. We can only ensure correct care and then hope that our vehicles don't suffer from these problems. Charlie's thread has some interesting points that are worth keeping in mind, but no amount of advice can totally protect a car engine failures if there's a fundamental issue with design.

As for other manufacturers engines, well I don't know, but my E90 BMW is trouble free after more than 90k miles. It's efficient and powerful and from my experience and from what others say about theirs, is an amazing engine.

If the Rav is anything close to it, I will be more than happy.

 

[Heidfirst]

IIrc there were 2 different issues with fixes at slightly different times (search for a post by Devon Aygo).

Only Toyota truly knows the figures & I very much doubt that they are going to reveal them publicly ... My best guess from what I have gleaned over the years is that it is (probably well) under 5%. Prevalence seems  to possibly vary with output, being higher in the more powerful versions, so more likely in a T180 than a 150bhp 2.2 & less likely in a 2.0 (though they have still occurred).

Both BMW & VW have had their own, different issues as have had the likes of Mazda, Vauxhall etc. . One difference though is how the companies stand behind their products - I doubt that any of the other companies would have been so willing to cover fixes (usually a replacement engine minus ancillaries) under goodwill.

The new Toyota 1.6 & 2.0 diesels are BMW designs (last generation, not the ones in their own current cars).

[Ogster]

What I am endeavouring to do is understand the true level of risk involved and how much I should therefore worry! If the risk is no greater than other manufacturers' engines, and the numbers involved are relatively low, then it seems reasonable that the the risk is acceptable and thus presents little cause for concern. I appreciate there may be a particular problem with oil consumption/head gasket etc, and this is useful to understand, but I think we must always put any problems into full context.

So far, I am not unduly concerned as the 2AD seems no worse than others. Incidentally, I too have a BMW E87 2 litre and have had the VW 1.9TDI. Both have their particular issues - turbos mainly - but are certainly no worse than anyone else.

     

[Heidfirst]

Other than the head/headgasket issue I strongly suspect that the 1AD/2AD are actually more reliable than the BMW/VWs. The problems are that a) if the issue develops the cost of the Toyota-sanctioned fix (a replacement engine minus ancillaries so £5k+) is so high compared to the value of the vehicles given their age now & b ) you can't really predict which ones will develop it.

What you can do is watch for the symptoms (coolant loss, coolant spotting around the tank, high oil consumption) & try to keep the engine as carbon-free as possible (use premium fuels or additives such as BG244, Archoil 6400-D etc., give the car a good long, high-speed run on a regular basis).

[Notamused]

I used to have an old E46 BMW that blew the turbo. Nasty expensive experience was that.

The later ones appear to be of better design, but turbo's are turbo's and can always fail I guess.

I'm hoping that what I have read / heard of the 2AD engines is a little pessimistic too, and that it's less of an issue than some of what can be found on the web would suggest.

[Ogster]

 

9 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

Other than the head/headgasket issue I strongly suspect that the 1AD/2AD are actually more reliable than the BMW/VWs.

.....but surely the point is precisely the head/gasket issue? I appreciate the cost implications and it seems to be something we should all watch out for, but is it really as prevalent as some folk make out, or is the occurance so unlikely so as to mitigate the overall risk of incurring these high costs?  

I am inclined to believe as Trevor above. There does appear to be a degree of pessimism here, and words of apparent wisdom on the web do sometimes need to be tempered with a reality check. I do agree that using decent fuel, regular oil changes and the odd blast will reduce the risk further.

As far as turbos on BMs/VWs are concerned, very often it is not the turbo itself, rather the root cause is either the solenoids which actuate the turbo, or the variable vanes clogging up with soot.    

[Heidfirst]

Well, it's pretty much the only blot in the 1AD/2AD copybook (& high fuel consumption on the D-CAT equipped versions compared to their peers) as they really don't seem to suffer from other issues to the same extent as many other manufacturer's common-rail turbodiesels.  As I said, my best guess from all that I have seen is that it is probably well under 5% but only Toyota know for sure.

The takeaway is that no modern common-rail, turbodiesel is as bulletproof as the older, simpler diesels. HonestJohn's basic recommendation is not to run 1(from any manufacturer) out of warranty cover, not to get 1 for short trips around town etc. .

[FROSTYBALLS]

Suppose the thing to bear in mind is that people tend to use forums, etc when they have a problem, and the majority of owners who don't have any issues don't use forums.

It is thought that the AD issues may only affect around 5% of engines, but this is conjecture, and only Toyota know the extent of the problem.

[philip42h]

According to the How Many Left? site between 2005 and 2009 there were 2,397 T180s registered. And at 3Q2015 there were 2,248 T180's still taxed and on the road - which suggests that we may have lost 149 (6.2%) somewhere along the way for various reasons. As has been stated above, a replacement engine at £3,000 - £5,000 at the owners expense for a seven year old / 100,000 miles car that won't be worth much more (if that) suggests that the majority of engine failures beyond the goodwill period would probably result in the car being scrapped. And yet 93.8% of the T180s ever registered in the UK are still taxed and presumably running on the road.

I picked the T180 since it is a single engine series that is generally more at risk than the lower powered versions.

We'll never know the true figures but the survival rates suggest that the problem isn't too common ...

[Notamused]

6 hours ago, philip42h said:

According to the How Many Left? site between 2005 and 2009 there were 2,397 T180s registered. And at 3Q2015 there were 2,248 T180's still taxed and on the road - which suggests that we may have lost 149 (6.2%) somewhere along the way for various reasons. As has been stated above, a replacement engine at £3,000 - £5,000 at the owners expense for a seven year old / 100,000 miles car that won't be worth much more (if that) suggests that the majority of engine failures beyond the goodwill period would probably result in the car being scrapped. And yet 93.8% of the T180s ever registered in the UK are still taxed and presumably running on the road.

I picked the T180 since it is a single engine series that is generally more at risk than the lower powered versions.

We'll never know the true figures but the survival rates suggest that the problem isn't too common ...

Interesting stats Phil, nice one.

As you point out, the 180 appears to have had some bad press over this problem, but given the numbers you posted above, a good used example of a car with a 2AD engine doesn't appear to be such a bad choice if the price is fair and the car immaculate.

Whether such a car proves to be one of the unlucky few is impossible to know, but I have my fingers crossed that the one I am supposed to be buying proves to be free from trouble.

 

[NORTHERN_LAD]

If you haven't bought it yet you could get a Toyota dealer to check the reg number to see if the engine has been changed. 

[Heidfirst]

Are you buying privately or from a trader? If a trader you have far better consumer protection (you will basically have 6 months cover).

You might also want to investigate if you can take out a Toyota Extended Warranty (they have been doing a "2 years for the price of 1" offer recently, it may still be available) on the car that you are buying.