Advice on Warnings

[JeffreyR]

Hi all, 
I am looking for some advice on an ongoing problem. 

We bought a 2006 petrol Rav4 in Oct last year from a small garage. Very soon after buying it a 'check engine system' and 'check 4WD system' light started flashing up. Took it back to the garage and they basically just ignored it and turned it off. It has been coming back on regularly and staying on since then. They had sold me the car with a very worn front tyre (which I somehow missed when looking it over) and they thought the light was due to the tyres being differently worn. Changed tyre, light came back on after a few days. 

After a couple of repeated visits where they turned it off - they admitted it needed looking at and took it into the garage. 

They said the steering wheel was slightly misaligned which was what was causing it. They fixed that and the light came back on the very next day. I went back to the garage and the guy plugged the diagnostics in whilst I was there. The only warning was for the cat filter. The mechanic thought this is caused by using cheap fuel from supermarkets and advised me to start using fuel from proper garages. So I did. Filled up about 4-5 tanks since then, all from proper garages (BP, Esso, etc) and yesterday the light came back on. 

The garage is a good 40 mins drive from me since we moved after purchasing the car, and the somewhat-rude mechanic is huffing and puffing on the phone asking what I want done about it. To have it fixed obviously! It is clearly the same issue since I bought it from them. He wants me to book an appointment with the electrician but says they will need to keep the car for a week without offering a courtesy car (I'm guessing to try and put me off taking it back for the complimentary work which they are legally obliged to do). Living 40 mins away and in the sticks doesn't make the offer too tempting but seeing as a simple diagnostic (bloke plugging a computer in and reading the screen) costs £75 alone at the local Toyota garage I am in a position to go for the free option. 

Trouble is - if it comes up as the cat filter again then I assume it means the cat converter needs changing, which won't be cheap and they will fight not to do it for free. 

So I ask...has anyone got any advice on this rather frustrating turn of events? Anyone had a similar issue? I am pretty sick of this warning light. 

Oh, all mechanics have asked me if it feels sluggish to which I reply that I don't think so. I have never owned a 4x4 before so I have no basis for comparison but I think it feels fine.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the wall of text.  

 

[the fox]

you can try blasting it down the motorway it may clear the cat I have done this many times and it only failed once, you can buy pattern cat's cheaply now. the vehicle may have been owned by someone doing a lot of town work. have you got the error code, you can also buy very cheap code readers if you don't want to use Mr Toyota and you can also disconnect the Battery to clear some codes, the cheap fuel from super markets make me laugh every time, good luck

[JeffreyR]

Hi Fox, and thanks for the reply. 

When you say blast it down the motorway, do you mean go fast fro an extended period? That might clear the warning? I do some motorway driving but mainly it is used for short town journeys up steep hills. 

I'm a total novice with car mechanics so unsure what a pattern cat is, or how to fit one. Youtube might help I guess? Or is experience required? 

I don't have the error code. I don't have a reader unfortunately. All I know is that it flashes up the 'check engine system' followed by 'check 4WD system' and repeats (all yellow, not red). I will look into a cheap reader. 

The fule thing makes you laugh? Does that mean it's a load of rubbish? I've heard it from a couple of sources that the supermarket stuff is mixed with diesel and other stuff. It is always at least 1-2p cheaper than standard garages...it does make you wonder, no?  

[TomdeGuerre]

There's a lot of rubbish written about how bad supermarket fuel is. The supermarkets ALL sell diesel fuel which complies with EN 590 which is what is called up in the owners handbook. The supermarkets are high volume sellers so their tanks are regularly replenished and their tank farms regularly - and stringently - serviced. Better that than seeking out some out of the way BP or whatever station who sells "premium diesel" at about a quarter of the volume so the fuel has been lying longer and quite probably not from such clean, well used and replenished sources. 

[firemac]

It's too bad that you didn't get "legal" with the vendor when the fault first occurred as it is now probably too late to reject the car. Nevertheless, depending upon how clued up the garage is, it probably wouldn't do any harm to make the point that the vehicle is not of merchantable quality nor is it fit for purpose. Certainly the garage is allowed, by law, to be given the opportunity to put it right before you reject it, so you could perhaps argue that the efforts he has made to date represent that opportunity but now it is clear that he cannot repair it so you will reject the car. It certainly wouldn't do any harm to speak to your local Citizens' Advice centre and get their opinion.

Personally I don't think that an "Italian tune-up" - blasting the car down the road at high revs will be much use. With a diesel where the DPF is clogged then that can often work but with a petrol engine, I fear that once the cat is shot, there's no coming back - the only solution is a new one. I speak from personal experience having suffered two cat failures, one in a Ford and one in a RAV 4.2. Don't discount the fuel quality issue: our first 02-reg RAV was run almost exclusively on supermarket pee and it suffered several EML sensor failures and eventually the cat failed. We've had two more vvt-i RAVs since and both have been run almost exclusively on Shell Nitro and, guess what, no sensor issues at all. This includes our current 54-reg 4.2. The fact is that supermarkets only sell the cheapest fuel that they can get away with legally and fuels are not all the same: the basic stock from the refinery (which is what Tesco et al sell) has various additives blended into it by the majors (Shell, Texaco, BP, etc) before the tanker leaves the depot. A cynic may say that these additives don't make any difference and as far as petrol is concerned, the engines should be more tolerant of lousy fuel than diesels are but, in my experience, the premium petrols, such as NItro, definitely make a difference and I'm happy to pay the extra on a litre rather than fork out for sensors, etc. There's no way on earth that I would put supermarket pee in a diesel unless you want DPF problems. There are numerous examples in the various forums on the web to back this point up. If ever the old saying about getting what you pay for is relevant then it is for motor fuels - I don't know why people don't get this.

You are in an unfortunate position given that the car won't pass an MOT with a faulty cat so you either need to get heavy with the vendor or stump up for a new cat. If you decide on the latter, I would suggest, before you do anything, that you get a second opinion from a garage that comes recommended by someone you know/trust.

Good luck.

[Heidfirst]

If you bought the car from a trader in October you will be under the new Consumer Rights Acts 2015. Yes, you are probably too late to reject the car but you are entitled to free repair or replacement as the law will assume that the problem was there at point of sale unless the dealer can prove otherwise.

A Toyota dealer may be dearer but hopefully they should be more able to pin down the problem which then gives you more ammo in your ongoing discussions with the supplier.

[redlew]

I buy the cheapest supermarket fuel -come on Aldi and Lidl -and agree with Tom. If it was that bad there would be investigative journalists making programmes about it. 

[the fox]

Yep blast it down the motorway it may help the cat to burn off all the rubbish, but it won't remove the fault code if stored, you will have to dis-connect the Battery or remove a fuse not sure if it's F1 but you can Google that, then just re-connect the Battery or the fuse, or buy a code reader and see what the code is and then clear it. But other members are correct if the fault was on the vehicle when bought and they get only one chance to repair, but you may need to make a claim in the courts,

[JeffreyR]

14 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

If you bought the car from a trader in October you will be under the new Consumer Rights Acts 2015. Yes, you are probably too late to reject the car but you are entitled to free repair or replacement as the law will assume that the problem was there at point of sale unless the dealer can prove otherwise.

A Toyota dealer may be dearer but hopefully they should be more able to pin down the problem which then gives you more ammo in your ongoing discussions with the supplier.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Firemac has terrified me! As I say I am a complete novice and know very little about car engines. If the cat is failing then obviously I will battle with the garage using trading standards and consumer rights to get them to fix it. If however, they somehow manage to wriggle out of it, how much is replacing the cat roughly going to set us back? Is it the whole cat that needs changing or just a filter? 

I don't want to get rid of the car. The garage did sell it at a very reasonable price (which is now starting to make sense perhaps?!) but I don't see many good ones for sale up here in Scotland. It's a great little runner with only one previous careful older owner.

Heidfirst - do you recommend getting the Toyota garage to do a diagnostic then? I just resent paying £75 for someone to plug a computer in and read the screen. Daylight robbery! 

[firemac]

3 hours ago, JeffreyR said:

Thanks for the replies everyone. Firemac has terrified me! As I say I am a complete novice and know very little about car engines. If the cat is failing then obviously I will battle with the garage using trading standards and consumer rights to get them to fix it. If however, they somehow manage to wriggle out of it, how much is replacing the cat roughly going to set us back? Is it the whole cat that needs changing or just a filter? 

I don't want to get rid of the car. The garage did sell it at a very reasonable price (which is now starting to make sense perhaps?!) but I don't see many good ones for sale up here in Scotland. It's a great little runner with only one previous careful older owner.

Heidfirst - do you recommend getting the Toyota garage to do a diagnostic then? I just resent paying £75 for someone to plug a computer in and read the screen. Daylight robbery! 

I can't see how I've terrified you, Jeffrey, but humble apologies nonetheless. If your cat's knackered then you simply have to get it sorted and then go legal if you can to recover your costs. Re the diagnostics, there are a number of handheld OBC readers on Amazon, etc from as little as £15 which allow you to read the fault codes yourself. The reasonable ones all come with a diagnostic listing showing what each code is in terms of fault or area of the system concerned. You can then pinpoint the problems. As far as Toyota's diagnostic charge is concerned, with the greatest respect, why do you expect them to do it for nothing? Do you work for nothing? They have to buy and maintain their equipment & premises and pay techies to use it on your car. You may not like the cost but it is what it is. In any event I think you'll find that if you book them to repair the problem, the diagnostic charge is waived - my local Mr.T does in any event.

Re the cost of a new cat, send a PM to Parts King on this forum who supplies members with discounted OEM parts and he can deliver. Make sure that you give him your reg no so that he can id the correct parts for your car.

As far as fuel quality is concerned, I can only speak from my own experience over many years and lots of vehicles - as result I won't use supermarket pee under any circumstances. Others may disagree but then agin, there are others on various forums whose experiences mirror mine. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Konrad C]

You could buy a diagnostic reader, but the more expensive the better. I have the Launch CPR which reads everything on my car - EML, ABS, VSC, steering and EPB (parking  brake). It did cost £185 and reads the profile of most cars in the world that are OBD2 compliant. It also can calibrate the steering and EPB (not try those. 

The cheaper readers should be enough for your car.

The most common reason for the EML are the O2 sensors. Your car should have pre and post. If you got a reader and got the codes, you will get a definitive answer what is wrong.   

If you are based SE London, Kent, I would try my Launch reader.  Surrey or Essex are a bit of a stretch due to the traffic. Last time I helped a friend who used a more expensive diagnostic tool and mine matched the results. 

You don't need to go to the main dealers, but ask around for a reputable garage and ask friends who they use.

[JeffreyR]

Haha no worries Firemac, I only meant that your assessment (that the cat might need replacing) was something I hadn't really given much thought...and is a little worrying now that I have. I am very grateful for your input. Yes I realise they can't do work for free, but it takes a matter of seconds/minutes to plug their machine in and read the codes. £75 just seems like a rip-off for that particular service. I will consider contacting Parts King if it does end up going that way with the cat, thanks again.

In a rather strange turn of events, the warning light seems to have gone. It has been on for a couple of days now, but took the wife to the airport this morning which is an extended motorway journey, the warning light on all the time. When I went back out in the car a few hours after I had arrived back home, the warning light has gone (it didn't appear on startup as it did before).

This raises a couple of extra questions. Could this have cleared the filter or does it mean that it might be an electrical/wiring fault if the light has turned itself off? I have booked the garages electrician to look at the car next Wednesday...is it wise to get them to look at it even if the light has not come back on by then? 

Sorry for all the questions. I am learning as I go :) 

Thanks Konrad. I will check those out when I have a bit more cash. Definitely seems like it would pay off in the long run. When you say you can calibrate steering, does that need mechanical tinkering or is it purely digital? As I mentioned in my OP the first attempt by the garage to fix this issue saw them recalibrating the steering (I think the wheels were misaligned?). They said it would have cost over £150 if it hadn't been on warranty so if this can be done at home in future then great! I am based in Scotland so quite far from south England I'm afraid. I will be hunting for a good garage near October when I will need to get service/MOT done. 

[the fox]

sounds like you have got your answer, if it's responded to a fast run down the motorway, it looks like it will respond to a good blasting down the motorway for a good half hour, looks like it will clear itself, I would remove the Battery for a short while to clear all stored codes and start again, or get a code reader see what the vehicle is storing, clear the system then give it a good hammering good luck

[JeffreyR]

Thanks Fox. Yes it does appear to be the case. Could dodgy electronics/wiring cause this to happen too though? I'm just trying to consider all possibilities as this warning light has come on quite a bit since owning the car. If I remember correctly it does tend to come on when I have just hit a duel carriageway or motorway though....which I suppose suggests it is the cat getting gunked up? 

[firemac]

As a matter of interest, what mileage is on the car? Was there a decent service history?

[JeffreyR]

Hi Firemac, I think it had about 80k miles and most stamps but not all. One elderly male owner. The garage said they serviced it before selling it to me.

I am due to have the garage inspect the car on Wednesday...but will they still be able to see the codes if the warning lights have turned themselves off? It's quite a drive to the garage so I'm wondering whether to bother. 

The rear suspension is quite squeaky too. I've heard that is a common fault with Rav4s. Have you heard that?