RAV4 2.2 D4D head gasket

[JT1]

HI. New to this club, but hello everyone and thanks for being here. We bought a RAV4 XTR with 2.2 D4D engine 18 months ago with 50,000 miles on the clock, from our local Toyota dealer. It had apparently suffered  some injector problems and was "all sorted out" when we took it away. The car has been serviced by Toyota up until its 70,000 miles service, which was done by my own mechanic at 68,000 miles, a few months after the dealers warranty expired. In the first few weeks of owning the car I noticed a little puddle of water under the engine occasionally, but our dealer said its not unusual. Very little coolant loss and never overheated. When my own mechanic serviced the car it was about 500ml short of water and he noticed coolant stains on the expansion bottle overflow and engine bay.Guess you know whats coming.... took it to dealer and within 10 seconds of opening the bonnet their mechanic said head gasket failure. Speaking to a few other owners and reading forums here I guess he had seen it before. My question.. at 68,000 miles and Toyota servicing should Toyota not be prepared to help out? Our dealer has given us a courtesy car and is asking Toyota for a contribution, but are hinting that we will have to pay a substantial part of the cost, or buy another car from them at their forecourt price. We haven't finished paying for this one yet! It seems to me if it needs a new short engine its virtually a write off! Toyota quality??? Any advice?   

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello Simon - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

See:  

Toyota did provide assistance with this issue under a goodwill arrangement covering affected cars for up to 7 years or 111,846 miles from the date of first registration, whichever occurred first (ie either the time limit or the mileage limit).

As yours is a 2008 model and is over 7 years old, it is now outside the goodwill arrangement. 

Previously though, Toyota has abided by the above time/mileage limits, and as the car now hasn't got a full Toyota service history, the answer may be adversely affected. Goodwill works both ways.

Your best bet would be to see what answer the Toyota dealer gets from Toyota re a goodwill contribution in this instance. As you are outside the above mentioned goodwill arrangement, a contribution may mean just that - ie not the full cost.

Whether or not Toyota are willing to contribute, you'll obviously need to weigh up which option the dealer has offered is best suited for you - to continue with the repair or go with another vehicle. A third option may be to explore whether someone else can try repairing the head gasket, though not sure whether that will be possible or whether it will be a short term repair as opposed to long term.

Thread moved to the Rav4 club.

[JT1]

Hi Mike and thank you for that. Guess we will see what happens. As this is obviously a problem with quite a few of these engines I am surprised that Toyota are putting restrictions on their assistance. 68000 miles is no age to suffer a major failure on a diesel. I am surprised really.  Thanks anyway 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Compared to other manufacturers, Toyota have been quite generous.The problems with these engines, which seems to be a small percentage, occurred before the introduction of the five year new car warranty, and during the goodwill arrangement only required proof of reasonable maintenance.

Whereas when BMW had timing chain failure issues on some of their engines (eg Mini), they only provided goodwill contributions if the vehicles  had full BMW service histories.

[the fox]

Are you certain the head gasket as gone, I have owned my 2.2 since 2007 and it is always low on water, if I add water to the correct line it throws a bit out leaving a stain on the bottle, it's always been like this, does yours run OK apart from this, try running it lower on the expansion bottle....

[JT1]

Hi all. Thanks for input. Yes.. sure its either head gasket or fault in head /block. Local dealer "sniff tested" it. Don't want  to worry The Fox but ours did just the same, ie throwing bit of coolant out of expansion bottle, since we bought it, 18 months ago. Toyota said that was ok. But it does it far too quickly for it to be just expansion. The system will pressurize in a minute or less from cold. Any pressure build up should only be from the heated coolant expanding, yes?  Anyway hope yours is not developing same fault. Ours runs fine no lack of power or overheating. Question... our dealer is looking for another RAV4  in case we decide to replace ours with a newer model. So when was the D4D engine modified to avoid the head gasket problem???  Thanks everyone. Maybe some get some branded RAV 4 coolant drip bowls for your members driveways :)   

[FROSTYBALLS]

If you look at the link in my first post, that gives the build dates of the affected engines. So if the dealer can find you a later Rav4 with a build date (not first registration date) after December 2008, that should have one of the modified engines. 

Initially when these engines were replaced under the goodwill arrangement, dealers rebuilt them which wasn't always successful. To overcome this Toyota began supplying modified factory built engines.  If the dealer can find a Rav4 where the engine has been replaced with a factory built modified engine, that may be worth considering.

Most Toyota dealers in recent months have had an offer on the Toyota extended warranty - 2 years for the price of 1. Don't know whether that may be of interest.

[JT1]

Thankyou Mike. Latest from our dealer... They cannot find another RAV 4 for us. They offer to change head gasket for £750.00. Toyota will supply parts. This gets more confusing, as reading posts here it seems that just changing the head gasket won't fix the problem long term. What is the point in doing all that work for a short term fix? This car is my Wife's pride and joy. she is absolutely gutted. I guess if we commit to the repair we have then spent £10,750 on a car we still can't trust.  

[FROSTYBALLS]

Not clear on this. Have the dealer stated what Toyota's response to the request for goodwill was? If Toyota have agreed to a goodwill contribution, is the £750 your side of the contribution?

Think you need to ascertain what the extent of the repairs is. Usually the repair is a short engine - so is this what is happening?

Whichever it is, and to provide some degree of confidence in the car for yourselves, if you have the car repaired, I'd be inclined to cover yourselves with a Toyota Extended Warranty. 

[JT1]

Hello. Dealer says Toyota will contribute discounted parts (head gasket set and oil etc). Dealer will pay half labour charges, leaving a required contribution from us of £750 to pay. BUT... they clearly state that the offer is on a "subject to strip" basis and if more work is required then we will have to pay for it. We are not accepting the offer. I think its disgraceful. Is there anyone at Toyota UK that I can talk to directly? Thanks for advice regarding extended warranty. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

See https://forms.toyota.co.uk/contact-us

There have been previous instances on the forums where cars with the AD engine issues have gone beyond the 7 year/111,846 mile goodwill arrangement and been refused any other goodwill. Obviously no one knows whether there is any other damage to the engine.

If you do contact them, bear in mind that the current offer is goodwill and may be withdrawn, so be careful. 

[Heidfirst]

5 hours ago, JT1 said:

Hello. Dealer says Toyota will contribute discounted parts (head gasket set and oil etc). Dealer will pay half labour charges, leaving a required contribution from us of £750 to pay. BUT... they clearly state that the offer is on a "subject to strip" basis and if more work is required then we will have to pay for it. We are not accepting the offer. I think its disgraceful. Is there anyone at Toyota UK that I can talk to directly?

Your contract is with the supplying dealer & not Toyota themselves. At 7/8 years old Toyota are not legally obliged to do anything so even offering a contribution is going beyond what they have to do by law - typically their CS is the best of the volume manufacturers (you might also want to look at how other companies like e.g. BMW, Ford, Mazda, Vauxhall, VW often deal with even in-warranty claims let alone out-of-warranty).

[estate]

Hi JT1

I would try emailing Toyota GB MD with your problems as they did recognise it was a problem of their making and it is comparatively low mileage for a diesel failing when you compare it to other manufactures.

His email address is: 'paul.vanderburgh@tgb.toyota.co.uk'

Good luck.

[JT1]

Thank you Frank. I hear what everyone says re warranty etc but in my humble opinion Toyotas are sold on a reputation of reliability and longevity. Major engine failure at 65,000 miles is hardly in line with that. I will contact Mr Vanderburgh and ask for his opinion. I have to say that if this is not Toyota's manufacturing or design fault why have they seen fit to modify the engine? No one at our dealer recognizes that there has ever been an issue with the D4D engine or has mentioned extended warranty. We cannot accept the "subject to strip" offer because it potentially leaves us responsible for thousands of pounds worth of work should, for example, the cylinder head be damaged. That would pretty much make the car a write off. It cost £10000 18 months ago.  Thanks again everyone.       

[FROSTYBALLS]

47 minutes ago, JT1 said:

I have to say that if this is not Toyota's manufacturing or design fault why have they seen fit to modify the engine? No one at our dealer recognizes that there has ever been an issue with the D4D engine or has mentioned extended warranty. 

No-one has said this is not a manufacturing or design fault - in fact Toyota acknowledged it was by offering the 7 year/111,846 mile goodwill coverage for the issue.

Also it is thought that the problem affects a small proportion of the AD series engines, and it is quite likely that a dealership may not have seen the issue previously. As stated previously the issue was covered by a goodwill arrangement, and not an extended warranty.

[estate]

I don't buy this belief of a goodwill gesture. Toyota produced an engine that was 'not fit for purpose' and quite rightly admitted this and decided to correct the problem, they had created. 

Honda did the same when they had problems with engine pistons,  causing abnormal oil consumption on two of their models. Honda decided to extend the engine warranty for both models to eight years or 125,000 miles.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

24 minutes ago, estate said:

I don't buy this belief of a goodwill gesture. Toyota produced an engine that was 'not fit for purpose' and quite rightly admitted this and decided to correct the problem, they had created. 

Whether you buy it or not is irrelevant.

The fact remains that Toyota acknowledged it was a design fault, and the period Toyota decided upon to correct the issue, by whatever method, was 7 years or 111,846 miles (in Europe 180,000km), whichever occurred first. In Honda's case it might have been 8 years or 125,000 miles, whichever occurred first - but that was Honda's decision.

The OP's vehicle is outside Toyota's age limit, and yet the OP has been offered some goodwill.

There are posts on this forum where Toyota have rejected goodwill claims for vehicles outside either the time limit, the mileage limit, or because of service history issues. 

[Bod&Hammie]

My  Verso had these problems and was 1 month outside the 7 years extended warranty, but I had done the servicing myself after the 3 year manufacturers  warranty ran out. I had however kept all the parts receipts that I had ever bought for the car and although it was a fight, they still supplied and fitted a new engine at 45,000 miles FOC. They were quite coy about letting on that they knew of the extended warranty until I told them that I had been in contact with Toyota GB HQ and it was also common knowledge on this forum. I also told them that I had been in touch with trading standards with regard to the engine being not fit for purpose.

It's worth having a chat with them and sending the GM an email.

Good luck fella.

Bod

[firemac]

Hi Simon,

You said above that "....ours did just the same, ie throwing bit of coolant out of expansion bottle, since we bought it, 18 months ago. Toyota said that was ok."  Could you therefore argue that the problem was evident a year and a half ago (when you bought it) and it was unfortunate that the Toyota dealer who you took it to mis-diagnosed the problem then? If you have any documentation that supports that earlier visit and inspection I'd try to build a case that says the problem was there whilst the car was still under the goodwill arrangement.

I can understand that you are hacked off and therefore feel that you've suffered an injustice of sorts but, as has been said above, Toyota's customer service is usually way above the norm but with any piece of machinery, a line has to be drawn somewhere when it comes to long-term (and non-obligatory) liability. If you can build some credible lineage between the dealer's report 18 months ago and today's situation, that might produce the result that you want.

Good luck.

[JT1]

Hello and thank you all for the advice. We have emailed Toyota GB as suggested. Waiting response. Also have written to our dealer and rejected the offer of head gasket repair for £750, advising them that we are aware of the goodwill situation with these engines, etc, Truth don't hold out much hope so we have another plan. Watch this space.... Whatever the outcome would like to thank you all for your opinions and input here. It's a great forum and nice to know some real people out there. Drove by my RAV4 today. It's parked on dealers forecourt for a week or so now, looking all lost and lonely in the rain, poor thing. Will come back here with the outcome. Best regards everyone. 

[the fox]

Hi JT1.

Good luck with contacting Toyota, you sound more frustrated than my wife, she had a lot more problems than you, and she contacted Toyota UK with no joy, you are right the engine problems are a big issue, the problem is many of the contributors on this forum work for Toyota dealers etc. and should not be making statement's unless they have had bought a Toyota and had the problem's you are facing, Toyota only gave extra warranty because of bad media coverage, their is a lot more they could do for owners with this engine problem, most owners believe their Toyota's are brilliant UNTIL they have problems and find Toyota are just another manufacturer no better no worse. I have previously stated the 5 year warranty on vehicle's was only introduced because of the media coverage and to try and get some customers back on side, my wife sold her Rav4 and when I get rid of mine I won't be buying Toyota again. My Rav4 is up to 5 recalls it's just not good enough, I know members on here will say "but a least they are recalling" 5 is a lot.. and members will state some are not Toyota problem's but the items being re-called are tested and certified fit, to fit to Toyota's by Toyota maybe Toyota should not buy and fit cheap parts, who knows.. my Rav4 is the one with the naff engine but since it was new the EGR valve was blanked, and the build up of carbon is not an issue I have which is what I believe the engine problem to be, too much pressure due to carbon on pistons etc.

[TomdeGuerre]

I'm no apologist for Toyota, in fact I've been quite critical of them in a number of posts on here. I recall one member posting about the troubles he'd experienced with his Mercedes Benz (a name you'd have thought synonymous with Quality) and how they fell spectacularly short of expectations. Doesn't prove anything but it's only fair to compare.

    

[the fox]

Yep I fully agree like I stated Toyota is just another car manufacturer no better no worse, but some members who I believe make a living from the brand should not make biased statements, I have previously stated this, I'm a member of a Honda and a Kawasaki forum group and members are not encouraged to make comments if they make a living via the brand, sorry for going off topic in advance.... Google forum.

[FROSTYBALLS]

31 minutes ago, the fox said:

Yep I fully agree like I stated Toyota is just another car manufacturer no better no worse, but some members who I believe make a living from the brand should not make biased statements, I have previously stated this, I'm a member of a Honda and a Kawasaki forum group and members are not encouraged to make comments if they make a living via the brand, sorry for going off topic in advance.... Google forum.

The only two members that I'm aware of as regards making a living from Toyota are Parts-King and Devon Aygo, both of whom work for Toyota dealers and make no secret of this fact.

It seems the only one showing bias is yourself.

[JT1]

Hi all. Gosh hope this head gasket thing is not leading to shinnanakins (one n or two?)  on this owners club site.....And yes Mr Foxy.. suppose you can feel the difference on these posts with owners who have been seriously let down by their chosen car manufacturer and those who need to fly the flag. Maybe most modern vehicles are only designed to make it to the end of the warranty period, like washing machines and everything else. A few years then throw them away? In these days of eco awareness I am surprised the powers that be don't realise that it is far more energy efficient to repair or update a vehicle than manufacture a new one. But selling new cars is big business yes? What really disappoints me is..

So far no reply to my letter to Toyota GB

My dealer has failed to contact me in any way since we received the "subject to strip" offer, despite receiving a written reply the next day. Whenever we call them "no one is available"

My local VW dealer has offered us a better price on the RAV 4  than my Toyota dealer, knowing it has a failed head gasket, and they don't owe us any goodwill. 

Nobody at Toyota or Toyota dealers has mentioned extended warranty options, goodwill arrangements or anything else which may help us have some confidence in the RAV4.

Conclusion.... buy a VW. Collecting it tomorrow morning. If I ran my business the way my dealer runs theirs I don't think I would have a business, and I certainly wouldn't sleep well at night.

To quote someone else on this forum..."Toyota? Never again".  Guess we'll find out if all manufacturers the same.