Fixed Price Servicing - increase in brake fluid change for hybrids

[FROSTYBALLS]

Members may have seen the increases in the Fixed Price Service scheme costs - 

- and noticed that the brake fluid change for hybrids has increased substantially (increased from £39 to £40 for petrols/diesels, and from £39 to £60 for hybrids). I enquired of Toyota GB as to why the hefty price increase for this maintenance option for hybrids, and their answer is copied below:

I have now had feedback from our Aftersales Team in relation to the price increase for brake fluid change and would like to provide you with the reasoning behind the larger increase on Hybrid models.

On petrols and diesels the time required for a brake fluid change is less than what is needed on hybrids. On hybrid models the use of the intelligence tester is now included in the time to bleed and replace. Originally, when the set price was first introduced, the only Hybrid model was Prius so the extra time needed for a brake fluid change was not taken into account and had minimal impact to the servicing Centre. Now there are more and more Hybrids on the road, we need to give a more realistic labour time taken, along with a price to reflect this.  The recent price increases, therefore, have now taken into account the actual time needed for the brake fluid change on Hybrid models, hence why the jump in price is greater for the Hybrid models than the petrol and diesel cars.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Can't say I'm overly impressed with the new prices. I'll be shopping about when it comes to my next service and seeing if the main dealer want my business enough to negotiate on price. If not then it'll be bye bye and I'll be going elsewhere. I feel quite a few others will also.

[YarisHybrid2016]

That seems rather under-handed! Keep maintenance costs low until enough people are buying, then jack the price?! Not cool.

As servicing costs factor into TCO for many people, is this mis-representation, if by their own admission they did not fully account for costs?

[Heidfirst]

Imo, no, especially as they at the same time introduced a cheaper scheme for older vehicles. It is quite normal for businesses to analyse & recost/reprice things maybe every 3-5 years as some costs do diverge over time.

In the UK hybrid models have gone from being a fairly minor, halo, product where it probably wasn't worth the effort to separately cost out to now having a very significant % share of sales - on Auris iirc it is something like 50% & on the latest RAV4 the Hybrid versions are apparently selling more than petrol& diesel combined.

& remember these prices are the maximum that dealers who operate the scheme can charge - they are free to offer lower prices if they wish.

 

[MEP's Yaris GS]

On 28/04/2016 at 11:29 AM, Heidfirst said:

Imo, no, especially as they at the same time introduced a cheaper scheme for older vehicles.

Yet an older vehicle will still technically require the same servicing as a newer example! Crazy.

[FROSTYBALLS]

On 28/04/2016 at 11:29 AM, Heidfirst said:

Imo, no, especially as they at the same time introduced a cheaper scheme for older vehicles. It is quite normal for businesses to analyse & recost/reprice things maybe every 3-5 years as some costs do diverge over time.

 

25 minutes ago, MEP's Yaris GS said:

Yet an older vehicle will still technically require the same servicing as a newer example! Crazy.

Other manufacturers offer cheaper servicing schemes for older vehicles, so they too must be crazy. Examples -

Ford offer Motorcraft 4+ for vehicles 4 years of age and older

Volkswagen offer fixed price servicing for vehicles between 3 and 15 years old

Hyundai offer 5 year+ servicing (similar to Toyota's Essentials scheme).

At the end of the day, once a car is outside the new car warranty, owners are less likely to use main dealers due to cost, and these schemes are a way of retaining those customers for servicing.

 

[MEP's Yaris GS]

On 29 April 2016 at 2:06 PM, FROSTYBALLS said:

At the end of the day, once a car is outside the new car warranty, owners are less likely to use main dealers due to cost, and these schemes are a way of retaining those customers for servicing.

So while within warranty they're trying to fleece poeple off basically.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Don't think so. Most manufacturers don't have fixed price servicing during the new car warranty period - dealers can charge what they like. Toyota make fixed priice servicing available from the first service due on a vehicle, which removes the ability of dealers to vary prices - unless, of course, they charge less.

However, Hyundai offer quite a reasonable servicing package on new cars which beats most. For our 2015 1.4 i20, three years servicing pack was £349 with the option of five years at £649.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

8 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

However, Hyundai offer quite a reasonable servicing package on new cars which beats most. For our 2015 1.4 i20, three years servicing pack was £349 with the option of five years at £649.

Not very reasonable when you see its none transferable to another vehicle if you chop it in for another Hyundai, or its written off before the plan is used. I know someone caught out with that when they had their 12 month old Hyundai written off in a none fault accident.

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, MEP's Yaris GS said:

Not very reasonable when you see its none transferable to another vehicle if you chop it in for another Hyundai, or its written off before the plan is used. I know someone caught out with that when they had their 12 month old Hyundai written off in a none fault accident.

If that happened to us, as the service pack is included within the invoice for the car, our GAP insurance would cover it.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

14 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

If that happened to us, as the service pack is included within the invoice for the car, our GAP insurance would cover it.

I suppose it'll depend who your GAP insurer is and their T&Cs.

[Ancient Nerd]

On 18/04/2016 at 10:53 AM, FROSTYBALLS said:

- and noticed that the brake fluid change for hybrids has increased substantially (increased from £39 to £40 for petrols/diesels, and from £39 to £60 for hybrids). 

I had my Auris hybrid in for its 20,000 service yesterday. Charge for brake fluid change was:

£17.81 labour, £5.37 environmental, £9.32 brake fluid

So total £32. 50 +vat = £39.00

[Anthony Poli]

14 minutes ago, Ancient Nerd said:

I had my Auris hybrid in for its 20,000 service yesterday. Charge for brake fluid change was:

£17.81 labour, £5.37 environmental, £9.32 brake fluid

So total £32. 50 +vat = £39.00

Might the same as when I went to buy oil, my usual dealer quoted a lower price and said Toyota suggested price was something like £15  more.

Or Maybe I am just lucky, as i went for a Battery for my mothers old corolla. Was quote £56, when the Battery was placed on the parts counter, I just happened to say its smaller than the original and the guy behind the counter said You have have the bigger one for the same price. Which made the local dealer look like crooks as they just wanted to sell the larger Battery for £10 more.

Maybe that's why some people refer to the main stealer.

Some places just go that extra mile or 20 in my case.

 

[AisinW]

I am confused with the service schedule manual on Toyota Auris or Prius Hybrid in Europe.  They listed brake fluid flush every 2 years/20k miles.  Meanwhile in USA, they do not have such recommendation.  Even sparkplugs is 120k Miles schedule in USA with exact same engine and sparkplubs SC16HR11 (updated from SC20HR11).  It seems Toyota have different point of view for european costumers. Toyota treat European like MilkCow.  186 euros for oil change vs US $100  in USA for 0w-20+filter.   But brake fluid flush is way cheaper in Europe for about 50 euros instead of $100 in USA but it is not mandatory for warranty.   

[FROSTYBALLS]

In the US the recommended service intervals for the majority of Toyota models are every 6 months/5,000 miles. In Europe it is 12 months/15,000km, and the UK 12 months/10,000 miles.

So for the majority of Toyota models in the US, services occur twice a year.

https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/maintenance-schedule

For the US, it is Toyota US that sets their service schedules, in Europe Toyota Europe/individual importers - eg. in the UK Toyota GB.

[Mike J.]

On 4/18/2016 at 10:53 AM, FROSTYBALLS said:

On hybrid models the use of the intelligence tester is now included in the time to bleed and replace. 

This is fair - the Yaris hybrid (and all the other hybrids?) has an electric brake booster which fills up a special pressurised reservoir. All this extra stuff has to be taken into account. Similar to changing the 'gearbox' oil - standard Yaris was around £60, hybrid around £250 - the oil has to be topped up multiple times between 'drives' before the oil level is deemed correct, which is time consuming.

[Joseph D]

On 5/19/2020 at 2:38 AM, Mike J. said:

hybrid around £250 - the oil has to be topped up multiple times between 'drives' before the oil level is deemed correct, which is time consuming.

Where did you hear that?

[Mike J.]

1 hour ago, Joseph D said:

Where did you hear that?

Workshop manual that is available online here, so I was not surprised when the price I was initially quoted, for a gearbox oil change, went up ☹️. Note hybrid gearboxes don't really need oil changes until very high mileages - I thought £60 was cheap so booked it in only for them to phone me, nearer the date, to cancel the work for £60.

[YarisHybrid2016]

On 5/19/2020 at 5:19 PM, Mike J. said:

Workshop manual that is available online here, so I was not surprised when the price I was initially quoted, for a gearbox oil change, went up ☹️. Note hybrid gearboxes don't really need oil changes until very high mileages - I thought £60 was cheap so booked it in only for them to phone me, nearer the date, to cancel the work for £60.

What is considered a "drive"? I noticed if it is sat in Park and the car is in auto-EV mode, pressing the accelerator starts the petrol engine.

[TonyHSD]

Brake fluid change on Toyota hybrids is super easy diy job if you have someone to help, front ones done old school style with engine off and pump and hold the pedal, rear one are even easier, just push and hold the pump will do it for you, there are some important steps to follow and anything else is easy job. Ok takes time as you need to lift and remove all the wheels, and best is to get the pads off and clean and lubricate sliding pins. Done that on both our hybrids this summer and they have nice and sharp brakes., all discs clean and shiny. 

[wass]

On 5/18/2020 at 2:01 PM, AisinW said:

I am confused with the service schedule manual on Toyota Auris or Prius Hybrid in Europe.  They listed brake fluid flush every 2 years/20k miles.  Meanwhile in USA, they do not have such recommendation.  Even sparkplugs is 120k Miles schedule in USA with exact same engine and sparkplubs SC16HR11 (updated from SC20HR11).  It seems Toyota have different point of view for european costumers. Toyota treat European like MilkCow.  186 euros for oil change vs US $100  in USA for 0w-20+filter.   But brake fluid flush is way cheaper in Europe for about 50 euros instead of $100 in USA but it is not mandatory for warranty.   

I am convinced that a certain amount of psychology goes into service requirements. Motorcyclists , for example are willing to spend lots and lots of money in servicing the machines they only cover a thousand miles a year on. The funniest thing is how motorcyclists are willing to pay up to double for oil which doesnt contain anti friction enhancers.... yep they buy engine oil which is deliberately less sophisticated because  the latest slippery oil  makes the typical motorcycle wet  clutch slip! Motorcycle spark plugs very rarely see 10,000 miles.The Americans perhaps dont worry so much about their brake fluid or spark plugs.

Many years ago , my dad used to service his own car and had drawn up a servicing chart for it. Complete brake fluid changes only seemed to occur every five years or 50,000 miles in the 1960's. Maybe brake fluid was less hygroscopic in the 1960's and maybe brake systems would let in less water because seal technology was so much better or maybe the punters just got more gullible whilst the lawyers got more rich on claims against the motor industry? "Mandatory for warranty" might seem to be simply another ploy to blag the servicing cash out of the punter.

[AisinW]

My trusted mechanics has 22 years old Toyota truck and never flush his brake fluid.  He simply said, yes other brands may need brake fluid flush regularly because they do not know how to make a good seals.  I tested my own Prius 2006 in 2017, 11 years old at 220k miles, and the brake fluid is still golden clear and the water content is less than 1% (simple probe that is actually accurate).  I believe, we should change brake fluid every 5 if we live in mountainous area or 10 y in flat area like Florida I used to live.   Sparkplugs Iridium Denso is supposed to be 120k miles interval (Denso recommendation), transmission fluid 60-90k miles, oil 5-10k miles (depends our driving habit), and it should be fine.  

[Parts-King]

1 hour ago, AisinW said:

 and it should be fine.  

Herein lies the problem, a garage has a duty of care to carry out repairs and maintenance when due, so cannot say to the customer it "should" be OK. Just because somebody "can" do 220K without changing the brake fluid does not mean everyone should do it. 

[AisinW]

23 hours ago, Parts-King said:

Herein lies the problem, a garage has a duty of care to carry out repairs and maintenance when due, so cannot say to the customer it "should" be OK. Just because somebody "can" do 220K without changing the brake fluid does not mean everyone should do it. 

There is proper procedure with 'voltmeter' to measure water content in % and strip test (copper content) to see how much anticorrosion additive.  In both cases, My 220k Prius was still OK when my mechanics flush it after 11 years of driving.  It depends on costumer and that's why in USA owner manual and service schedule do not specify about brake fluid.  Because it is indeed fine 99% of cases and no point paying $100 for brake fluid flush.  I won't do 200k miles brake fluid flush interval for non hybrid, probably 60-90k miles.    

Toyota Europe schedule 60k miles Iridium SC16HR11 plugs because European feel uncomfortable having such long durable interval.  However, European do not have 60-90k miles transmission fluid interval in their service schedule. Because it is lifetime=warranty expired and it is fine for most of us in Europe. That's why Fiat, Renault,  and OPEL/Vauxhall still can survive in Europe market.  For American, 200k miles is just standard good car border and 100k miles is considered to be low mileage.  

[AisinW]

On 11/1/2020 at 8:26 PM, wass said:

I am convinced that a certain amount of psychology goes into service requirements. Motorcyclists , for example are willing to spend lots and lots of money in servicing the machines they only cover a thousand miles a year on. The funniest thing is how motorcyclists are willing to pay up to double for oil which doesnt contain anti friction enhancers.... yep they buy engine oil which is deliberately less sophisticated because  the latest slippery oil  makes the typical motorcycle wet  clutch slip! Motorcycle spark plugs very rarely see 10,000 miles.The Americans perhaps dont worry so much about their brake fluid or spark plugs.

Many years ago , my dad used to service his own car and had drawn up a servicing chart for it. Complete brake fluid changes only seemed to occur every five years or 50,000 miles in the 1960's. Maybe brake fluid was less hygroscopic in the 1960's and maybe brake systems would let in less water because seal technology was so much better or maybe the punters just got more gullible whilst the lawyers got more rich on claims against the motor industry? "Mandatory for warranty" might seem to be simply another ploy to blag the servicing cash out of the punter.

Yes, many people worry about their warranty voided by DIY or skip Dealership visits.  I did my oil change for my Auris TS 2016,  and warranty is always covered unless they can proof if the failure is caused by me.   I only kept the invoice and fill the manual handbook with my own signature.  I visited dealership yearly because it is now beyond 100k miles to get hybrid Battery warranty for total of 10 years.  I paid €32 every visit and the record is available in  their database and I can check it in Toyota website.  Yes, 4th year/60k miles maintenance are done by myself (oil change, transmission fluid change, sparkplugs, filters, throttle body and MAF cleaning).  I skipped brake fluid change because it is still very Good, less than 1% water, cannot distinguish it from new fluid. 

I see some surface rust on the struts and also the rubber bushing on the stabilizer links are bad. REplacing the rubber only is very easy, just remove both left and right nuts and lift the bar up, put new rubbers and get back to business.