Immaculate Gen 3 in Traffic accident

[Chris Dance]

We were away from home for the week end and had our immaculate very low mileage Prius T Spirit damaged in collision with a Land Rover Discovery whilst I was turning right. The front suspension and front wing passenger side was badly damaged. The police recovered the car to Crewe. The Toyota insurers at first want it to be recovered to Stoke on Trent from the police authorized recovery company in Crewe . The police said I was at fault as I had missed seeing a red filter arrow on the other side of the road. I had just come through a green light. The ambulance crew told me that they attend lots of incidents at this junction. Local folk came to see what happened and they said locals know about the filter arrow but visitors often have accidents there. Today I phoned Toyota insurers and they have now decided that the car can be recovered to my local dealers repair shop. If the car is a write off I cannot have a courtesy car, if it is repairable I can have a courtesy car. My wife had to attend A& E; we were both well shaken up. My reason for writing this is to warn others about the red filter arrow at junctions. Do not think because you are on a green light you can turn. Look at the traffic lights on the "other side of the road".

I feel happier about the car being repaired locally.

To get home Toyota insurers said we would have to get trains or bus and send in receipts!!. Luckily we have a wonderful son who came and collected us and drove us home.

 

 

[Carltona123]

Oh Chris that's the most terrible news - you love that car so much!  Not to mention your wife, of course!  You'd think the insurers would at least give you a rental until they decide one way or the other.  And that the local council would sort out the death trap of a junction.  Hopefully the car will prove to be repairable - soon - and that no one has any lasting physical injuries.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Another tail of why its always worth reading the small print of what is and isn't included in different insurance policies. There are some right shafters out there. The fact they're moving the car sounds like it might be repairable, if a definite total loss then they'd have been having it taken straight to their salvage agent to save money. Glad no serious injuries though.

[Sooty]

Hi Chris,

Very sorry to hear your news, but glad that no one was seriously injured.

Could you let me know which junction the accident happened on please, as it sounds as if that is close to where I live?

I hope all goes well and your car is repaired.

[Chris Dance]

Thanks for your replies. Still a bit shook up after the accident. After shock I suppose.

Yes I did expect a courtesy car and a better get you home service rather than say get the bus or train and keep the receipts. Just when you need this help it is not there; still that is insurance. I did expect better from Toyota. My premium will be put up this year because of the accident. I do have protected no claim bonus.

Hi Sooty. The accident was in Nantwich; Junction Millstone Lane and Beam Street.

Police have told me I will be charged with driving without due car and attention. They said I could go to court, get fined, and points on the licence or take a driving course. I have stated I prefer the driving course.

Car will be recovered to Milton Keynes today.

.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota don't provide their branded car insurance - they have an arrangement with Aioi Nissay Dowa Insurance Company of Europe Limited and Toyota Insurance management Ltd is a subsidiary of Aioi Nissay Dowa. 

Most car manufacturers have a similar arrangement for their branded car insurance - for example: Ford Insure and Nissan Insurance are provided by Europa Group Ltd, VW insurance is provided by Allianz Insurance PLC, Vauxhall Insurance is provided by Ageas Insurance Ltd, Honda insurance is provided by Aviva Insurance Ltd, etc.

Similar arrangements exist with some supermarkets, etc - for example M&S car insurance is provided by BISL Ltd

[YarisHybrid2016]

Sorry to read of your accident!

If you have a green light, then it should be safe for you to proceed! You can't be responsible for shoddy road layout/design!

I'd fight that hard in court and argue the road layout/poor signage contributed, especially as it apparently has a high incidence of collisions there!

[Chris Dance]

Hi Yaris;

Yes I had a green light on my approach road but that red filter arrow on the opposite side traffic lights meant I could not proceed to turn right. How a visitor is supposed to know a red filter arrow is there is beyond me. Police state it complies with traffic regulations.( I cannot find any mention of RED filter arrows in the highway code or on line, only green ones.) I am charged with driving without due care and attention. Police have stated I have to attend a driving course or go to court. I have gone for the driving course and it is booked for June at a local hotel. It is a full day course. I just want it over and done with. The police constable told us they are applying for better signage at that junction with the Nantwich council. Police say I would be found guilty in court.  I do not want a fine and points on my licence. I have had a clean licence since 1963.

The car has been recovered to Milton Keynes. Steven Eagell body shop have been great and the supervisor has said they will do their best to save the car because of its low mileage and excellent condition. Decision to be made next week on whether to repair or write off. Steven Eagell say they have also recovered my personal possessions that I had listed. The police recovery company at Crewe had said I had to go to Crewe and collect them!!

Keep safe folks be careful of the red filter arrows on the other side of the road.

[Carltona123]

Hi Chris

Glad to see that you're alive and well and still posting!

I think you're wise not going to court - there's no way in a thousand years you'd win because if you did then everyone else who'd been busted for that junction would have to have their convictions quashed too.  Plus I did jury service a couple of years ago and it's just not a nice place to be.  Such a pity that they don't treat the cause and not the symptom - i.e. the dodgy lights.  I'm sure there are plenty of other matters the people of Nantwich would like the police to attend to instead of that junction.

I am genuinely praying that your car can be saved!

[Duffryn]

Huge sympathies Chris, glad you are okay and, hopefully, your car can be saved.

Regarding the red filter, to my knowledge I've never seen one in over 55 years driving, and if, as you say, they are not in the Highway Code then how are we as mere mortals supposed to be aware they exist? Do local councils make the rules up as they go along? Maybe you should challenge the local 'authorities' to prove the legallity of the damn thing.

Having said that, you are always gonna be on a hiding to nothing and are certainly taking the wise option in attending the course rather than challenging it in court.

Good luck.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Can you google maps link us to this junction. I'd be interested to see this red filter in the flesh on street view.

[myriagon]

36 minutes ago, MEP's Yaris GS said:

Can you google maps link us to this junction. I'd be interested to see this red filter in the flesh on street view.

Very sorry to hear about this accident - hopefully the OP will be back on the road very soon.

As for location, this one perhaps... https://goo.gl/maps/qrAZTjxTwyD2 I think the location is right however it looks to be one of those filter arrows that goes green when you can turn right without any oncoming traffic. I don't remember seeing a filter sign that is red - usually they are just not lit up when you have to give way to oncoming traffic.

 

[mickburkesnr]

I think with what's happened this week with events on the news, I wouldn't be taking any legal advice from the Police.

Get yourself legal help, even if it's just to see whether the Police are right in what they are saying. You mention a red filter arrow, I've never ever seen one of them driving. Green ones yes, red ones? Is it a disco? Plus the fact the police are applying for better signage would suggest to me that it's more of a fault with the road layout and not your driving.

In my experience with insurance companies, cheap is always expensive. I was with Elephant (who are owned by Admiral) and I had an accident. A woman hit me from behind. At the finish of the claim - took 9 months - it was settled 50/50. Why? Her insurance (LV) said they had evidence that proved it was my fault as I was straddling the lanes (I wasn't) and my insurance company requested the evidence. This happened in January last year, and when it got to June when my policy was up Elephant rang me up to ask what I wanted to do with the claim. I rang them up, and in the 6 months since LV last responded Elephant didn't chase them for the evidence and LV never supplied it. If I carried on the claim I would lose 3 years no claims while it was argued, so I settled 50/50 to preserve my 6 years no claims.

As I said to my insurer, the one job and the one reason we pay them is to protect us when we have an accident. They couldn't be bothered fighting my corner when I needed them most, so I told them to take a long walk off a short pier. From now on, go with an insurer who has a good rating from customers. Don't go for cheap.

[Chris Dance]

Yes this is the junction:  https://goo.gl/maps/qrAZTjxTwyD2

Notice the grey car coming through the traffic lights and the red car turning left. That is the traffic light with the RED light. Look at the traffic light there is a small light which is unlit next to the green light. That small extension light becomes a RED arrow and then you cannot proceed to turn right; ( I wanted to turn where the red car is going.) The traffic light I had driven through was GREEN. How you are expected to look and see that RED arrow across the road on the other traffic lights is beyond me. I also think if I recall the highway code states there should be a white waiting line in the middle of the road if you have to wait for the approaching traffic to pass. At this junction the road I have come down, and the road opposite both show green lights. I can go if the RED arrow is not lit. I thought that if I had a green light the other side would be RED. In fact I said to the other driver "you came through a RED light". He then pointed out the RED arrow. Locals stated the light change is very fast!! Police informed me I had no right to go through with filtered RED arrow lit. (Was the red arrow lit at the time I made my turn or was it as the locals state a fast change?)

I would not win any legal case.  I was informed by the police that this system conforms to the Road Traffic Act.

As I have stated I will take a days driving course and hope that is an end to it even though I now have a criminal record!!

Toyota insurance is reputable and not cheap. When I reported the accident to Toyota Ins on the Sunday morning. The operator said because the police stated the accident was my fault I could not have a get you home car. I was told to get a bus and train and forward receipts for consideration. I expected more from a fully comp insurance. I was told by the police our car would be recovered to Crew. The Toyota Ins operator on the Sunday stated I had to get the car repaired at Stoke on Trent Toyota dealer and liaise with their panel shop to recover the car. I rang The Stoke dealer on Monday they stated they did not deal with recovered cars. I rang their panel shop and got a similar answer.

On Monday 25th April I rang Toyota INS and explained I was being given the "run around". They authorised my local dealer's panel shop at Milton Keynes to recover the car and all my personal effects. Steven Eagell's (local dealer) panel shop supervisor has been more than helpful. If the car is repaired I will get a courtesy car. I have to wait till next Tuesday for the repair decision.

My priority is to get it all sorted. I will be talking up a few points with Toyota  Insurance eventually. I doubt they will care!! After an accident like this you need support not hassle as my wife and I were in shock.

[FROSTYBALLS]

4 hours ago, mickburkesnr said:

From now on, go with an insurer who has a good rating from customers. Don't go for cheap.

 

13 minutes ago, Chris Dance said:

Toyota insurance is reputable and not cheap. When I reported the accident to Toyota Ins on the Sunday morning. The operator said because the police stated the accident was my fault I could not have a get you home car. I was told to get a bus and train and forward receipts for consideration. I expected more from a fully comp insurance. I will be talking up a few points with Toyota  Insurance eventually. I doubt they will care!! After an accident like this you need support not hassle as my wife and I were in shock.

A couple of thoughts:-

One can check customer ratings either from Defaqto or the latest Which? report.

The Get You Home service offered by Toyota Motor Insurance states the following: "If your car is not roadworthy after an accident, we can arrange to get you and your passengers home or to your planned destination. If you cannot complete your journey, we will pay for emergency overnight accommodation up to £150 for each person (up to £450 in total)." Which actually doesn't say they will provide a car.

As regards provision of a courtesy car the policy documents state: "To keep you mobile, while using a Toyota Motor Insurance approved repairer, you will be offered a courtesy car while yours is being repaired. Once we have decided that your car can be economically repaired  and if it cannot be driven, we will provide a courtesy car subject to availability. Note that the policy talks about a Toyota Motor Insurance approved repairer, which may not necessarily be a Toyota dealer, but the approved repairer should have Toyota trained staff.

There is a Legal Advice section within the policy, so it may be worth looking at that and possibly contacting that part of the service regarding where you stand in relation to the charges.

[myriagon]

Are you sure about the filter light going red? I have never seen anything like that in my 25 years of driving all round the UK.

A filter light like that always goes green when it is safe to cross to the right. In addition I don't think using red is safe. What about people who are colour blind. My understanding is that for one type of colour blindness, red appears black. Those people wouldn't be able to see if the filter was lit or not.

A quick google found http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/traffic-lights-sequence.html - there's nothing about a red filter.

[FROSTYBALLS]

As regards the traffic light sequence, this includes the common green filter. Presumably those systems which have a red filter, when the red filter is illuminated, that should be interpreted as a signal for traffic using the filter, to stop. No inference that this red filter system is better than other systems, just an observation.

[myriagon]

It's just occurred to me that if that filter light was a red stop one, assuming for a moment that such a thing exists, then it should have been on red when the streetview photo was taken given the positions of the cars in the photo. However it's not on which is what I would expect for the normal green filter. Of course it's possible the traffic lights have been changed since the streetview photo was taken in Oct 2015 but that's unlikely.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Think it depends on the timing of the system - the OP had been told the light changes very quickly.

[myriagon]

Why would a red filter light change very quickly? It should be on red while traffic is moving towards the camera position as the grey car is in the photo.

The standard green filter light is one that typically changes very quickly to let just 2 or 3 cars turn right.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Land Rover Discovery was the one that missed a red light when the filter light went green? That would explain the collision. I suppose it's possible the police have confused the two cars...

If I was the OP I would be taking a trip back to check that junction more closely and see if there really is a red filter light. The OP might also want to post this on a forum like pistonheads or IIRC pepipoo.com which specialises in the law and motorists as you should get more expert help on those forums. You might also find someone local to that junction on pistonheads or pepipoo who could take a look at the lights there for you.

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 hours ago, Chris Dance said:

At this junction the road I have come down, and the road opposite both show green lights. I can go if the RED arrow is not lit. I thought that if I had a green light the other side would be RED. In fact I said to the other driver "you came through a RED light". He then pointed out the RED arrow. Locals stated the light change is very fast!! Police informed me I had no right to go through with filtered RED arrow lit. (Was the red arrow lit at the time I made my turn or was it as the locals state a fast change?)

Quote from the OP's third post above.

[Chris Dance]

Frosty. As you have stated, Toyota lnsurance policy states WE can arrange for you and your passengers to get home or to your destination. I do not think WE should mean that is a DIY job by the insured. ie. Get the bus or train. I did not necessarily want a personal car but I expected a get you home service from the insurer.

Myriagon. Yes that filter light is definitely RED not GREEN. It was pointed out to me by the other driver and the police in a very positive way.You are correct that filter light should be on red considering the position of the cars. The local people who came to se the accident and the ambulance crew all said the light changes are too fast.  The ambulance crew and local folk told me there are always accidents there. One traffic constable said I was the first to have an accident there.???

I have never seen red filter light before. Nowhere can I see it mentioned in the Highway Code. I am told they are widely used in London.

[myriagon]

Thanks Frostyballs - still not convinced about this red light as it doesn't make sense in safety terms. As I said before if you are colour blind and you don't see red then a red light, especially when you are expecting it to be your common green filter light, is not fail safe if that makes sense.

Anyway I have just checked google streetview from 2011 https://goo.gl/maps/TVgEai8Fzcm and you can see the green filter actually on in that photo. Ok the lights may have been changed since then but I would be surprised.

[myriagon]

> I am told they are widely used in London

FWIW I haven't seen them in London and I do go there fairly often.

[FROSTYBALLS]

27 minutes ago, Chris Dance said:

Frosty. As you have stated, Toyota lnsurance policy states WE can arrange for you and your passengers to get home or to your destination. I do not think WE should mean that is a DIY job by the insured. ie. Get the bus or train. I did not necessarily want a personal car but I expected a get you home service from the insurer

.... but the insurer could say that by arranging to reimburse you, they've fulfilled their obligation.