Hybrids - con? (split thread from the Rav4 club)

[Mark O]

My apologies to burst the balloon, but frankly I think hybrids are a con - certainly as far as saving the planet and realistic fuel savings are concerned. Firstly as regards saving the planet, and presuming the thing can be plugged in, the electricity has to come from somewhere. In the UK at least, most of it is still generated by fossil fuels, so null points on the green scorecard there. There is also at least 15% distribution/transmission losses down the wires, and further heat loss in the energy transformation at the generators at the power station and within the vehicle itself, so few points on the efficiency scorecard also.

As regards realistic fuel consumption, granted if running on charge it will be excellent - though due to the above, not as efficient or green as you may imagine. When not running on charge, fuel consumption will be dire - as you have a generator and heavy batteries to move around as well as the rest of the car.

 That said, I do think all electric city cars are great, but still the Battery technology needs improving.

Not convinced on hybrids. For general use, especially for motorway runs, nothing - at present anyways - beats an ICE, and there is still room for improvement.  

[Heidfirst]

It's a hybrid not a plug-in so that kind of negates your argument about power plants & distribution/transmission losses. The electricity is generated from an Atkinson cycle petrol-fuelled internal combustion engine & also from regenerative braking.

[Cyker]

Batteries are the main weak point, but electric motors are AWESOME.

The launch they give off the line is so much fun

If you're lucky enough to live near a Tesla dealer, I'd highly recommend booking in a cheeky 'test-drive'  just for !Removed! and giggles - It feels a bit weird/eerie to drive, but the power that thing can put down is nothing short of breath taking.

Until they invent a better way to store electricity, I think hybrids will be a good compromise - You get the electric torque but you get the high energy storage of fossil fuels.

Yeah, they ain't as efficient as they're made out to be (My 12 year old diesel Yaris still gets better peak AND average mpg than any HSD :P), but having that high electric torque plus the long fossil fuel range is pretty compelling! (Plus they actually meet modern emissions standards, something my poor Yaris wouldn't have a hope in hell of passing now!!)

It's a shame they have such a bug in the butt about eco-friendliness and fuel economy; BMW's i8 is a stunning car that performs as well as it looks - I reckon a HSD-equipped GT86 would be amazing too

 

[Mark O]

Many hybrid are also plug-ins - Volvo/Mitsubishi - but if this one is not, then correct, it does negate the argument re. efficiency and industrial power generation. However, and IMHO naturally, this makes it even worse. As aforesaid, the extra weight of a generator, transformer/inverter and of course batteries plus the huge energy losses - principally heat - in transforming the energy when using the IC engine -  from chemical to kinetic - engine/genset - then chemical then back to kinetic  - Battery to motor -  are huge, and both these factors have a major adverse effect on fuel consumption.

Regen braking is fine, but again there is heat loss in the energy transformation, and the energy recovered is minimal. 

Still not convinced. ICE and direct drive is still the way to go both for efficiency and the environment. 

     

[TomdeGuerre]

Motoring press didn't seem overawed with it.

 

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, Mark O said:

Many hybrid are also plug-ins - Volvo/Mitsubishi - but if this one is not, then correct, it does negate the argument re. efficiency and industrial power generation. However, and IMHO naturally, this makes it even worse. As aforesaid, the extra weight of a generator, transformer/inverter and of course batteries plus the huge energy losses - principally heat - in transforming the energy when using the IC engine -  from chemical to kinetic - engine/genset - then chemical then back to kinetic  - battery to motor -  are huge, and both these factors have a major adverse effect on fuel consumption.

Regen braking is fine, but again there is heat loss in the energy transformation, and the energy recovered is minimal. 

Still not convinced. ICE and direct drive is still the way to go both for efficiency and the environment. 

     

This is a pure hybrid, not a PHEV. Atkinson cycle is more efficient than Otto cycle but has it's issues which is where the electric bit complements nicely. If you look at the Gen 4 Prius engine it's supposedly 40% thermally efficient which makes it if not the most efficient mass manufactured car petrol engine certainly in the top few. A diesel will still beat it for high speed cruising mpg but as we all know diesels have their own issues ...

 

52 minutes ago, TomdeGuerre said:

Motoring press didn't seem overawed with it.

 we are fairly used to the motoring press not appreciating Toyota cars' strengths  & Toyota seem to be selling more RAV hybrids than they forecast.

[TomdeGuerre]

54 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

This is a pure hybrid, not a PHEV. Atkinson cycle is more efficient than Otto cycle but has it's issues which is where the electric bit complements nicely. If you look at the Gen 4 Prius engine it's supposedly 40% thermally efficient which makes it if not the most efficient mass manufactured car petrol engine certainly in the top few. A diesel will still beat it for high speed cruising mpg but as we all know diesels have their own issues ...

 

 we are fairly used to the motoring press not appreciating Toyota cars' strengths  & Toyota seem to be selling more RAV hybrids than they forecast.

So what do you mean by “we”? Is that the royal “we” or just “wee”? Are you trying to impart some sort of gravitas to what, after all, is only your opinion. Why do you feel the need for inclusion, do you not have the intestinal fortitude to state your own opinion without seeking the cover of others?

If you knew anything at all about Cars Technica you would realise they’re renowned for measured judgment, technical accuracy, integrity and avoidance of click-bait fodder. So your attempt to dismiss them as just another trash media motoring press source backfires badly. Try again sunshine.

[Mark O]

I guess the nub of the point I am making is that hybrids are marketed very strongly on their (alleged) environmental and fuel efficiency credentials. This is why I feel they are something of a con-trick, as any modern ICE/direct drive will beat them hands down on both points if the vehicle is driven away from towns and cities for any length of time - not a particularly uncommon desire of a motorist. Granted the torque from an electric motor is indeed wonderful, and the technology involved is certainly impressive, but technology must not be confused with progress, and I fear many have been led down the environmentally-friendly garden path only to discover there is a wee bit of manure heap at the bottom of it.    

[PeteB]

To be honest, I don't really care what anyone else thinks.

I'm on my 6th Prius in 14 years and in 3 weeks or so get my 7th.  My present Gen 3 often gets almost 80 mpg on a 120 mile each way cross country run in good weather, on summer tyres, cruising at 60 most of the way.  Cruising at 70 knocks it back to just over 70 mpg, winter tyres and bad weather knock it further.  I'm happy enough with that.  The rest of the time I do lots of short journeys, which knocks back the tank to tank calculated mpg, but it's still fine. 

My last Gen 1 2002 Prius was sold at 9½ years old with 163,000 miles on the clock, and the maintenance costs were so low it worked out as the cheapest total ownership costs of any car I've owned whether calculated per mile or per month.  In that time, just 2 replacement sets of spark plugs and one set of brakes discs/pads, not just cost saving but environmental impact too.

I'd like an all electric car, but none currently can do all I need - but when there are more very fast charging points on the East of England that may change.  For now, I'm happy to spend 2 minutes pumping about £40 worth of unleaded into my tank, then forgetting about fuel for almost 600 miles!

Most of all, though, I just love the smooth gearless progress and magic carpet sensation when stopped or driving slowly.  Even if it weren't so economical, I'd have one just for these qualities (not to mention reliability too).

But I recognise they aren't for everyone.

Incidentally, a friend who bought my old firm's converted plug in Prius charges it from his wind turbine.  Last time I heard from him, he'd only filled the tank twice in the last 9 months, as it's 30+ mile EV range more than meets his normal daily needs.

[Joseph D]

7 hours ago, Mark O said:

...  as any modern ICE/direct drive will beat them hands down on both points  ...

And yet, they don't, when compared like for like.

7 hours ago, Mark O said:

...  many have been led down the environmentally-friendly garden path only to discover there is a wee bit of manure heap at the bottom of it.  ...

I think you are loosing objectivity by mixing your facts about PHEVs and pure hybrids.

Most people don't drive hybrids to be eco-friendly (outside of "look at me" "celebrities").  Most drive them to save money on fuel, and they certainly do that.

I feel your prejudices are preventing you being truly objective.

[D Arrowsmith]

Oh dear! Well we all have opinions don't we,. Took delivery of my RAV4 Icon Hybrid this week and I love it. It certainly does not resemble any of the reviews I have seen written about it, and I like it.  I have not ordered it to be an Eco warrior, I found the diesel MPG I was getting on my 2013 Rav was poor and I feel diesels are going to get hammered some way or another soon, we were all conned into thinking they were efficient and they are no better or worse than any other car. There is more to come with manufacturers caught cheating etc, I have my car based on what I want and the test drive and I am happy with it!

[Heidfirst]

15 hours ago, TomdeGuerre said:

So what do you mean by “we”? Is that the royal “we” or just “wee”? Are you trying to impart some sort of gravitas to what, after all, is only your opinion. Why do you feel the need for inclusion, do you not have the intestinal fortitude to state your own opinion without seeking the cover of others?

 

If you knew anything at all about Cars Technica you would realise they’re renowned for measured judgment, technical accuracy, integrity and avoidance of click-bait fodder. So your attempt to dismiss them as just another trash media motoring press source backfires badly. Try again sunshine.

Get out of bed the wrong side? Had a bad day? 

"We", I think, would be the majority of people on this forum. Given Toyota's continuing position as no.1 perhaps I could take it further probably to the majority of Toyota owners who, again imo, seem to buy vehicles using a different set of criteria than most automotive reporters seem to use. 

At no point did I attempt to dismiss Cars Technica as "just another trash media motoring press source" which after all is just your opinion of others ...

Out of interest have you actually read Alun Taylor's review in full? His main complaint seems to be that it's not a PHEV. It's imo very much his opinion - I see little measured judgement. For my taste I would take an Autocar review over it, even if negative. It ,again imo, would be more informative.

Tbh that review reminded me why I stopped reading it's parent site Ars Technica years ago ... Interesting that it's now owned by Conde Naste.

[Anthony Poli]

Where is the con?

You use less fuel than and standard petrol or diesel, your brakes get less wear and thats better for the environment.

Reviewers have to criticise cars, otherwise what would the point of the existence be?

If hybrids were that bad then sales would be declining, not increasing.

Thats my personal opinion and mpg.

[Cyker]

Yeah, it really sucks this U-turn on diesels; It's just another example of why I stopped believing anything I'm told by mainstream media or the government.

I'd love another diesel, but they've managed to cripple them so much with legislation that new ones are no longer efficient enough or as reliable as they should be. It's a shame as having the torque in the middle instead of at the top makes them so much nicer to drive than petrol cars!

I just hope they don't screw us derv owners over to the point that I have to give mine up; I love my Yaris D4D - It is a great car and there is literally nothing that beats it in its class - It's got stacks of torque, is possibly the ONLY car I know of that meets or exceeds the 'official' mpg it's rated for in normal use (My efficient driving style has gone out the window - Full power off the lights, none of this gentle acceleration malarky... really really bad driving practice...  and I'm STILL beating 1.0VVTi's and HSD's on mpg )

Right now, the next closest thing I know of, in terms of class and efficiency, is the Yaris HSD, but it's nowhere near as nice to drive - The suspension is far too hard (Seriously Toyota - I know we complained the Mk1 and Mk2 had too much body roll, but making the suspension harder is NOT the way to fix it!), it's far larger than my Mk1 Yaris outside yet has less storage space inside and it's *spit* automatic! *shudder* It also doesn't have a digital dash, sliding rear seats, a slide/tilt sunroof and the tyres cost over three times as much as mine!

Not a good trade-up...

 

 

 

(This thread hi-jack was brought to you by the Mk1 Yaris D4D Appreciation Society  )

 

[myriagon]

Having owned a hybrid Auris for 3 years I think hybrids are great and I came from a Merc E class diesel. Sure the performance isn't the same but then a hybrid like the Auris is not about performance. Where it does excel is around town being cheap to run. In my Merc I was lucky to get 35mpg around town and about 40mpg overall. The hybrid just driving it without any special effort is averaging 52 mpg and that is mostly short trips less than a few miles. On the motorway if I stick to the speed limit then mpg is in the 60s.

Not only is my hybrid fuel efficient, it's cheap to maintain. Nothing has needed doing other than the standard servicing in 3 years. At the last service brake wear was only 15% after 25k miles.

The reason I bought my hybrid was to save money and to have a reliable car. I did consider a Prius but the image did not appeal so went for an Auris hybrid that passes for a normal looking car.

Another hybrid plus is how quiet they are. I know all the reviews talk about the noise on hard acceleration but most of the time I accelerate at a rate where my car doesn't make much noise. In the sort of driving that I do accelerating hard will only get you to the next traffic queue faster and gain no benefit. My wife loves the quiet ride too. Talking to her about our next car, having a quiet one is now high on her priority list.

As for the future, I would like an electric car. Having watched some of the fullychargedshow videos on youtube to me an electric car makes a lot of sense. Just wish I could stretch to a Tesla... if you want performance, then take a test drive in a Tesla to see what is possible with electric motors. 2.8 seconds to 60 in the "ludicrous" model is well just ludicrous!

In the not too distant future I think a significant number will have electric cars and be charging them overnight with power from their own solar arrays or wind turbines. Again this won't be about being green but instead saving money. The self generated power will also be used to power homes. The oil and power generation industries are in for a major shock when that happens and will make the proposed very expensive nuclear power plant at Hinkley Point even more senseless than it already is. Cutting subsidies for solar power in the UK is another bad idea for Joe Public, driven I suspect by lobbying from vested interests who want to maintain the petroleum and power generation industries as they are today as well as those wanting to make money from fracking.

Looking elsewhere in Europe the Dutch are already talking about banning the sale of all petrol and diesel cars, including hybrids, from 2025 - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/18/netherlands-parliament-electric-car-petrol-diesel-ban-by-2025

[glorydad]

I have had my RAV4 Hybrid now for 3 weeks including a 100 plus mile trip into the centre of London and back.  I am very pleased with it so far.  I need to get used to maximising the fuel consumption benefits by changing my driving tactics so that they become autonomous but that will come with time.

i changed from my 2.2 diesel 4.4 RAV  auto wth a little tear in my eye as I loved the drive train (especially as I had a Lindop chip working it's magic, see for sale section 😉). It was very smooth and powerful combined with the auto box but the Hybrid is smooth too.  It delivers it's power differently though and seems to be as quick when asked.

The other thing I would mention is the different feel of the brakes and I sometimes find as I near the stopping point I feel I am still going a little too quick.  This is a matter that the brakes are not quite as progressive as on the oil burner.  I am sure I will get used to it and is not a biggy.  😱 Probably something to do with the balancing of the regeneration retardation (try saying that when you have had a few!) and the friction brake.

I will report further feelings/ findings when I reach 5k.

[Anthony Poli]

Glad your happy with your new hybrid :-)

 

[Mark O]

I simply do not buy into the fuel consumption thing. For any distance outwith towns and cities, like for like, hybrids are worse. All that extra weight and multiple energy conversion loss has to be paid for, and that is done with shoving more fuel than you would otherwise into the prime mover - the ICE.

I do buy into the quiet, smooth drive, and excellent acceleration, but this is not the point. As aforesaid, they simply do not live up to the main thrust of the marketing hype - which is predominantly based on their alleged environmental superiority over conventional design.     

  

[kithmo]

I think you've totally missed the point of hybrids Mark. Hybrids are primarily to reduce emissions in town and cities, which is where they excel.

On the motorway a modern manual diesel will probably match or beat a hybrid on mpg, even though it's putting out more of the obnoxious NOX emissions, but you're wrong about hybrids being worse "like for like". 

The Prius is a 1.8 litre petrol automatic which will easily achieve 55-60 mpg on the motorway and there is no other 1.8 litre petrol automatic that can match or beat that. A 1.8 or 2.0 Litre diesel automatic may just match it but then that's not "like for like" and around town the diesel auto is reduced to 30-35 mpg, whereas the Prius will easily get 60-70 mpg.  

[D Arrowsmith]

At the end of the day,  if the person who has purchased the car iis happy with it, then thats all that matters, isn't it?  I have driven my RAV4 Hybrid today wiith a huge smile on my face, had lots of people ask questions about it and take an interest in it because its an SUV.  On a mixed run of A/B roads a dual carriageways averaging 41mph I got 42 mpg,  not bad for a car this size with a  2.5l engine. A hybrid may not be the whole answer to car pollution, but its a step in one direction, as is Hydrogen. Either way,  I am very pleased with mine as a change from a RAV Diesel which I also liked a lot.

[Anthony Poli]

I simply do not buy into the fuel consumption thing. For any distance outwith towns and cities, like for like, hybrids are worse. All that extra weight and multiple energy conversion loss has to be paid for, and that is done with shoving more fuel than you would otherwise into the prime mover - the ICE.

I do buy into the quiet, smooth drive, and excellent acceleration, but this is not the point. As aforesaid, they simply do not live up to the main thrust of the marketing hype - which is predominantly based on their alleged environmental superiority over conventional design.     

  

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

I bought a hybrid after doing a lot reading the for and against. Having owned one, I know how much fuel I used to use compared to how much fuel I use now. 35% less or more, saving fuel and the electricity that is used to produce it.

If you really want to be green buy a horse ;-)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[myriagon]

Here's a positive video review of the new hybrid RAV4 from Robert Llewellyn. He drives a Tesla normally so is very keen on EVs - something which he does cover in this video. As he says it's a pity that Toyota aren't pushing forward with EVs given their experience with hybrids. I guess the hydrogen powered car is something to do with that although I would not be surprised if that is quietly dropped soon to be replaced with Toyota EVs. 

 

[Anthony Poli]

Here's a positive video review of the new hybrid RAV4 from Robert Llewellyn. He drives a Tesla normally so is very keen on EVs - something which he does cover in this video. As he says it's a pity that Toyota aren't pushing forward with EVs given their experience with hybrids. I guess the hydrogen powered car is something to do with that although I would not be surprised if that is quietly dropped soon to be replaced with Toyota EVs. 

 

His fully charged show isn't endorsed or sponsored by the auto industry. So he doesn't have to be kind, his preference is electric, but is realistic on how quick things can change. Hybrids are a step in the right direction.

I'm glad to see Toyota are now making hybrids that can tow, I like the RAV4 but I'll keep to my mk1 Auris for now ;-)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Cyker]

I think Toyota will start putting out EV's eventually, but I think they are of a similar mind to me - That is, at the moment they are very niche vehicles; You can pretty much only use them for city driving, with the exception of things like the Teslas, but those are in a might higher price bracket than what regular consumers tend to go for. The Model 3 may shake things up tho'.

I suspect they're just waiting for a breakthrough in electricity storage before they make a move, although that could bite them in the backside if they're not careful if they find themselves playing catchup.

I think the hydrogen route is not the way forward; The only advantage they have over EV is fast refuelling and range... and currently they do none of these things: Hydrogen refuelling stations are almost non-existent, and all the hydrogen cars I've seen have had range only slightly better than the higher-capacity EVs.

Unless someone comes up with a good catalyst for hydrogen generation, the losses involved with extracting it aren't really very favourable. But hey, maybe one day we can mine Saturn and Jupiter hydrogen!

(Ahh memories of how I used to refuel my ship in Elite 2; Buy a ramscoop, fly through a gas giant for a bit, bam, free fuel! )

 

[Heidfirst]

Imo the problem with EVs is how do you charge them? For many city dwellers like myself who have to park on-road:

a) I hardly see us being allowed to run a cable over the pavement to the car

b ) I can't guarantee parking directly outside my own house

c) there are probably never going to be enough public charging stations especially when unlike diesel/petrol or hydrogen you can't go from empty to full in a matter of minutes.