Hybrids - con? (split thread from the Rav4 club)

[Anthony Poli]

Next year when you buy a new hybrid, then you will be paying road tax. So that might help Toyota to focus more on EV's and possibly use an ICE as a generator only. Europe never did introduce zero emission city driving only and that could have been the incentive to make ev's a reality sooner.

[PeteB]

8 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

Imo the problem with EVs is how do you charge them? For many city dwellers like myself who have to park on-road:

a) I hardly see us being allowed to run a cable over the pavement to the car

b ) I can't guarantee parking directly outside my own house

c) there are probably never going to be enough public charging stations especially when unlike diesel/petrol or hydrogen you can't go from empty to full in a matter of minutes.

Then there's the problem with longer journeys - I seriously considered a Tesla model S, with the longer range Battery which at first glance can do 300 miles.  But we were talking in the region of £75K!

I was rather put off by no rear wiper nor heads up display, which I regard as must haves.  At least I could have bought a spare wheel (full size), stored it in the front boot, and still had the main boot for luggage or my folding bike.

But the range and lack of charging stations in the East of England really scuppered it.  Sometimes I do a 500 mile round trip in a day.  I couldn't find a single place to recharge, and any lower spec charging points would have needed 10-20 hours to charge!  Especially when that 300 miles range evaporated to nearer 200 unless you stuck to Tesla's driving spec - not over 55 mph, no A/C or heating.

Nope, didn't do it for me.

If I run my gen 3 Prius till it's on fumes, at today's prices I can just squeeze £42 worth of unleaded into it in a couple of minutes.  On a fair day I can then do almost 600 miles.  When I get my Gen 4 (in the next couple of weeks) despite it having a 2 litre smaller tank, with what I've seen and backed up by my test drive, I'd expect nearer 700 miles on a tank on one of my longer trips.

[MEP's Yaris GS]

Almost laughable this - almost on the verge of trolling from what I've seen.

Well Mr EV's use coal powered fire stations to charge, have you looked into how much coal fired electricity is used to refine crude oil into petrol or diesel? It doesn't just come out of the ground ready to go into a fuel tank.

From previous experience your rant about rubbish fuel economy is just that, rubbish. My Prius done 65mpg average over a 300mile trip with 5 people at nation speed limit last weekend, my previous 'eco' diesel would have been pushing about 50mpg at best with those speeds and load.

And just to correct you a hybrid doesn't get plugged in, thats what a PHEV (plug in hybrid vehicle does), its like saying petrol and diesel engines are they same, they simply are not.

Obviously a lot of delusional idiots out there if Toyota have managed to sell so many 'awful hybrids'.

[Joseph D]

On 28 May 2016 at 9:01 PM, Mark O said:

I simply do not buy into the fuel consumption thing.

You are more than welcome to have this opinion, as uneducated as it is.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Many hybrid owners, including myself, wonder at why so many drive non-hybrids and pay so much more in fuel to get to where they want to go.

All you can do is smile.

[kithmo]

10 hours ago, Anthony Poli said:

Next year when you buy a new hybrid, then you will be paying road tax. So that might help Toyota to focus more on EV's and possibly use an ICE as a generator only. Europe never did introduce zero emission city driving only and that could have been the incentive to make ev's a reality sooner.

This is another reason I bought my new Gen 4 this year. I was originally going to hang on to my Prius+ a couple of years longer then buy a gen 4 and the VED change next year swayed me into buying earlier.

[Anthony Poli]

Next year when you buy a new hybrid, then you will be paying road tax. So that might help Toyota to focus more on EV's and possibly use an ICE as a generator only. Europe never did introduce zero emission city driving only and that could have been the incentive to make ev's a reality sooner.

This is another reason I bought my new Gen 4 this year. I was originally going to hang on to my Prius+ a couple of years longer then buy a gen 4 and the VED change next year swayed me into buying earlier.

At least if and when I come to get a newer hybrid and have to pay the ved, I will be saving money compared to a petrol or diesel.

There is only one downside with my current Auris, I have the mk 1 with a tiny boot. . Just means a roof box for the trip to Germany ;-)

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[myriagon]

1 hour ago, Anthony Poli said:

There is only one downside with my current Auris, I have the mk 1 with a tiny boot. . Just means a roof box for the trip to Germany ;-)

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I have exactly the same issue with my gen 1 Auris. Trying to get 3 bikes in just doesn't go!

Have you tried fitting roof bars yet? The ones I looked at required a 5mm gap IIRC at the top of both the front and rear doors. My front doors are ok but not the ones at the back. I read somewhere that the rear doors can be dropped but it can lead to problems such as leaks.

Getting back on topic - well sort of, I'm surprised anyone here is talking about coal fired power stations when it comes to EV. In the future I think renewables such as wind and solar will provide power for EVs. Unsurprisingly the UK is lagging many other countries in this area - see http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-drive-for-100-renewable-energy-4581400/  Wildpoldsried in Germany appear to be doing particularly well producing four times the amount of energy they need, enabling it to sell the excess for approximately €5m.

[Anthony Poli]

There is only one downside with my current Auris, I have the mk 1 with a tiny boot. . Just means a roof box for the trip to Germany ;-)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have exactly the same issue with my gen 1 Auris. Trying to get 3 bikes in just doesn't go!

Have you tried fitting roof bars yet? The ones I looked at required a 5mm gap IIRC at the top of both the front and rear doors. My front doors are ok but not the ones at the back. I read somewhere that the rear doors can be dropped but it can lead to problems such as leaks.

Getting back on topic - well sort of, I'm surprised anyone here is talking about coal fired power stations when it comes to EV. In the future I think renewables such as wind and solar will provide power for EVs. Unsurprisingly the UK is lagging many other countries in this area - see http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-drive-for-100-renewable-energy-4581400/  Wildpoldsried in Germany appear to be doing particularly well producing four times the amount of energy they need, enabling it to sell the excess for approximately €5m.

I got my car at a Toyota dealer, so I asked for the rack and box at the same time. Took the rack off when I got home, there are 4 clear protective films to show me where to refit the rack in August. Just need a small step ladder to put the roof box back on. On the Toyota video the bloke must have been a giant ;-)

Back to the topic, they guy who started it, can't tell the difference between his elbow and another body part.

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[johalareewi]

Wow. Just come back from holiday and found this post.  Has it been resurrected from 7 years ago?

My advice to anyone is to head over to fuelly.com and check out real world mpg figures for all sorts of vehicles and when comparing different vehicles, make sure you are comparing like with like.  So for a toyota hybrid, you should compare with similar sized automatic transmission vehicles.  Or for fun, compare pretty much any Prius with manual diesel cars.

 

[timberwolf]

On 29/05/2016 at 9:05 PM, myriagon said:

I have exactly the same issue with my gen 1 Auris. Trying to get 3 bikes in just doesn't go!

Have you tried fitting roof bars yet? The ones I looked at required a 5mm gap IIRC at the top of both the front and rear doors. My front doors are ok but not the ones at the back. I read somewhere that the rear doors can be dropped but it can lead to problems such as leaks.

Getting back on topic - well sort of, I'm surprised anyone here is talking about coal fired power stations when it comes to EV. In the future I think renewables such as wind and solar will provide power for EVs. Unsurprisingly the UK is lagging many other countries in this area - see http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-drive-for-100-renewable-energy-4581400/  Wildpoldsried in Germany appear to be doing particularly well producing four times the amount of energy they need, enabling it to sell the excess for approximately €5m.

In 2011, the population of this village of Wildpoldsried was approx 2,500 with 7 wind turbines, 4 biogas digesters. 190 solar panels on houses, 5 houses heated by geothermo, and 3 small hydro plants. Their energy production was 321%, so they could theoretically support the domestic energy requirements for a population of 8,025.

In the UK, our population is approx 65,000,000 so we would need 8099 such villages to supply just the domestic electricity. We would need 56,697 wind turbines, 32,100 biogas digesters, 1,524,750 solar installations, 40,125 geothermo installations, and 24,075 small hydro plants. It does not say if or how many electric cars they could run back in 2011. As this is a village of 2,500, it does not seem very likely that they had any commercial or industrial consumption of power.

Whilst it may be good for a few, I don't see how this could work for a large population.

[myriagon]

According to https://www.townscountiespostcodes.co.uk/towns-in-uk/ there are over 43000 villages / towns in the UK so finding 8099 should be possible. The renewable technology, such as solar panels, has become more efficient since 2011. Like other technologies I would expect the efficiency to improve still further in the coming years reducing the number of renewable installations required.

Personally I think the politicians are a bigger issue when it comes to moving to renewable power generation in the UK. The political will needs to be there to drive the adoption of renewables. Our politicians seem more keen on fracking and building a new very costly nuclear power plant. Unsurprisingly other countries are showing the way forward with renewables - http://cleantechnica.com/2016/02/04/how-11-countries-are-leading-the-shift-to-renewable-energy/  Interesting to see Scotland in at number 4 with 97% of household needs from renewable sources.

[Anthony Poli]

You said it, the politicians are the main problem and another is the NIMBY's.

 

 

[Heidfirst]

24 minutes ago, myriagon said:

Interesting to see Scotland in at number 4 with 97% of household needs from renewable sources.

Wind is not 24/7 reliable though & in large installations it is a blight on the landscape (& the landscape is important to Scotland's economy through tourism).

There is certainly a place for hydro, solar and wind but I can't see them replacing our total energy needs any time soon.

[Anthony Poli]

16 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

Wind is not 24/7 reliable though & in large installations it is a blight on the landscape (& the landscape is important to Scotland's economy through tourism).

There is certainly a place for hydro, solar and wind but I can't see them replacing our total energy needs any time soon.

I do hope your not a friend of Mr T rump

 

 

[Heidfirst]

assuredly not. 

[Cyker]

I reckon they should put aside the money for one new power plant and use it to put solar panels on every roof in every major city; The amount of power you'd generate from that would be huge, and you'd grow a new industry for monitoring and maintaining them to boot.

Whether it was on a rent-your-roof scheme or the home-owner owned it all outright could make things complicated tho'.

It'd cool things down a bit too!!
Although I'm not sure if so many solar cells would create an anti-aircraft death-ray or something over major cities   
 

[timberwolf]

6 hours ago, myriagon said:

According to https://www.townscountiespostcodes.co.uk/towns-in-uk/ there are over 43000 villages / towns in the UK so finding 8099 should be possible. The renewable technology, such as solar panels, has become more efficient since 2011. Like other technologies I would expect the efficiency to improve still further in the coming years reducing the number of renewable installations required.

Personally I think the politicians are a bigger issue when it comes to moving to renewable power generation in the UK. The political will needs to be there to drive the adoption of renewables. Our politicians seem more keen on fracking and building a new very costly nuclear power plant. Unsurprisingly other countries are showing the way forward with renewables - http://cleantechnica.com/2016/02/04/how-11-countries-are-leading-the-shift-to-renewable-energy/  Interesting to see Scotland in at number 4 with 97% of household needs from renewable sources.

According to gov stats and the definition of parish councils, I would estimate there are approx 4500 villages with 2500 or few people within the UK. Apparently, 80% of the population live in Urban areas. Many Urban areas have references to villages because they once were before they merged into the concrete sprawl.

The only way I can see renewable being feasible is with hydro, and you need to have the good fortune to live in a place with enough water and mountains to support that.

The quote from the Scottish article, "The environment charity said wind power produced the equivalent of 97% of Scotland's household electricity needs."

I find it curious when I read that they used the word 'equivalent of'. Why say the equivalent of? Where did a charity get their data, what assumptions did they make, what figures were estimated, etc?

Cyker, I didn't know we had any money to build power stations, the UK always seem to use foreign, private investors, with the profit going out of the country and any risk put on the UK tax payer?

[Heidfirst]

4 hours ago, timberwolf said:

 "The environment charity said wind power produced the equivalent of 97% of Scotland's household electricity needs."

I find it curious when I read that they used the word 'equivalent of'. Why say the equivalent of? 

Because it's inconsistent - some days it produces more than 100% of domestic demand (they say that in December it ran at 148% of domestic demand), others nil & on others anything between ...

 

[Joseph D]

15 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

...  in large installations it is a blight on the landscape  ...

One person's blight is another persons beauty.

Me, I like the sight of windmills.

[timberwolf]

Heidfirst, thanks. It seems a rather misleading claim to brag that Scotland could get nearly all its domestic supply from wind power.

I like the sight of individual, traditional windmills, dotted in the landscape, not so keen on the same when lined along a canal. I don't like the sight of wind farms, lines upon lines of white wind turbines.

[myriagon]

I have no issue with seeing lines of wind turbines - much better than the sight of a coal fired power station polluting the environment. There are also many places where wind or solar farms could be located which no one would see unless they hiked some distance from the nearest road. Even in the supposedly densely populated South-East I know places where you can get away from all roads and see no houses, just a deserted foot path. Writing that makes me think of flying to South East Asia and seeing vast expanses of land along the way with very little habitation. Those countries could setup solar farms, given the sun they get, and export clean power to Europe making money in the process. Again politics are likely to be an issue given the unstable world that we live in although the gas pipeline from Russia seems to survive. Perhaps also power line losses over the long distances involved would make this idea unworkable?

As for wind / solar power being inconsistent from day to day, yes but that's where Battery technology or something similar comes in. Storing the power for when it's needed helps overcome this issue. Back in the 70s I remember being taught about Dinorwig power station in Wales - a pumped storage hydroelectric power station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity This is used to store power for when it is needed later.

Other countries have recognised the need to couple renewables such as wind power with building more grid level storage capacity. People in the know in the UK have also recognised the need for more storage capacity, however the way in which the UKs power market has been setup does not encourage investment in this area. Here's an interesting article on the subject from 2014  http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/print/volume-22/issue-7/features/a-closing-window-of-opportunity.html As far as I can tell the UK are still not investing in power storage capacity.

[Heidfirst]

I don't think that people object to individual or a few wind turbines but Scotland has a no. of large scale schemes with hundreds. & of course in order to maximise wind they tend to be on ridge lines & the like which makes them very visible. Scotland's landscape is important for the tourism industry which is a significant % of the economy.

Btw Scotland no longer has any coal-fired power stations.

Wind turbines also don't come without environmental cost - I know of at least 1 scheme where if it had been known beforehand what eventually transpired/was required they would not have got planning permission in the first place.

We have pumped storage in Scotland as well as conventional hydro - indeed Scotland had 1 of the first large scale pumped storage scheme in the world. That capacity is currently being increased via a couple of projects but there is a limit to suitable  & economically viable sites.

Like so many things it's all about balance - there is a place (indeed a need) for a mix.

[Anthony Poli]

44 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

I don't think that people object to individual or a few wind turbines but Scotland has a no. of large scale schemes with hundreds. & of course in order to maximise wind they tend to be on ridge lines & the like which makes them very visible. Scotland's landscape is important for the tourism industry which is a significant % of the economy.

Btw Scotland no longer has any coal-fired power stations.

Wind turbines also don't come without environmental cost - I know of at least 1 scheme where if it had been known beforehand what eventually transpired/was required they would not have got planning permission in the first place.

We have pumped storage in Scotland as well as conventional hydro - indeed Scotland had 1 of the first large scale pumped storage scheme in the world. That capacity is currently being increased via a couple of projects but there is a limit to suitable  & economically viable sites.

Like so many things it's all about balance - there is a place (indeed a need) for a mix.

Isn't there two tidal schemes as well?

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Article on BBC News website re Norway and electric cars - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36402942

[Anthony Poli]

I saw that earlier, just goes to show it's an attitude change that is needed and not a spectacular technology change.

There will come a point at which the remaining oil will just be too expensive find and extract.

One episode of fully charged, revealed one point that is not commonly known. How much electricity is consumed in the production of petrol / diesel.

We just need Battery technology to catch up now.

In the mean time, I'm slowly increasing my mpg in my hybrid.