COOLANT CAPACITY in Manual. Does it include expansion Bottle?

[Shimmy]

Hi all. My question is: Does the Coolant capacity in the Handbook INCLUDE the Expansion Bottle? My Corolla is 1997 Liftback GS AUTO 1.6. ( The frog eye version). Engine 4A-FE. 95,000 miles on the clock.The handbook states: COOLING SYSTEM: MANUAL 5.1 Litres. or 5.3 Litres with air con. All it says for my AUTO version is 5.2 Litres. No mention of air con, which I have,...so I'll use 5.2 to calculate on my coolant change using the radiator dilution method. Just some observations so far...I drained the rad and it produced almost exactly 2 Litres of coolant. Which means potentially 3.2 left in the system. I wanted to drain the block as well and THINK I correctly identified the engine drain bolt, ( to the left of the oil filter) but it was awkward to get to and my socket couldn't budge it. It wanted to round off, so I gave up before I caused a bigger problem and thought I 'd stick to the Radiator dilution method. Any tips on that bolt or coolant would be welcome. I was thinking of buying the Toyota Red coolant which is pricey so any good alternatives welcome.

Ta.

 

[mickburkesnr]

I would guess that if your Auto has Air Con then it's still going to be 5.3.

In terms of the bolt, make sure you're using a 6 point socket or spanner, as the 12 points won't grip the bolt properly and it's that that rounds the bolt off. Also, invest in gallons of Plus Gas. I had problems getting my alternator off my Corolla (that's how I found out about the sockets!) and PlusGas was a revelation.

[Shimmy]

Hey thanks Mick. You're right, I was attempting with a 12 point socket. I may have another go with a 6 point if I can find one. I'll look up Plus Gas Mate, sounds intriguing.

[oldcodger]

Even if you manage to drain the block, there will still be a fair bit of old coolant left in the system.

Think after 20 years in the block I would fight shy of trying to get the drain bolt out if it did not come away freely.

Suggest that once you have removed as much as coolant as you can, then fill up with water* and run the syytem till it gets fully hot and so dilutes any remaining old coolant.

Let it cool and drain again, repeat until it runs clear.

Then fill up as you were intending to, but add all  antifreeze first , then the water.

* NB the water should ideally be de-ionised water , about £1 for 2lts in the food supermarkets  car sections or elsewhere, Tap water is often  too 'hard' and can cause problems.

As to what to use instead of the expensive toyota pink or red, well its a question I am also wondering as I'm also at 95k +.

Aways used "standard" antifreeze in my old Avensis and changed every 2 years.

Think if you do change to non toyota types then its important to flush out as much of the old coolant as possible.

Be interesting to see if anyone can offer any practical advice on suitable alternatives..?

[Shimmy]

Hi OC. Yes, that's the procedure I'm planning on. Bear in mind. I can only add back 2 Litres in one go. Rad capacity = 2 Litres. Now according to the manual, the total is either 5.2 or 5.3 ( bit confusing re Air Con with Auto box), so I'm assuming 5.2 for now. That's a lot of water left in the system. I'm planning 2 more flushes de-ionised up to running temp with heater on and wait for fan to kick in twice, which took a good 20 minutes. So hence my question...Is the Expansion bottle part of that 5.2 capacity? I assume it's part of the system? Assuming it's not part of the equation for the mo, I've worked out the water is 61.5% of the total capacity. So, on the final flush I will remove 1 Litre of DILUTED coolant and add back 1 Litre of Concentrate. This will balance out at just over 50/50 in favour of coolant. However, if the expansion tank has been kicked in during engine heating, it changes the equation slightly. Toyota have told me to use the Red. It has red at the moment, but I have no idea what brand or age. I haven't read up on the pink. Is that the extra long life stuff?  

Edited September 15, 2016 by Shimmy
spelling

[oldcodger]

There is so much on the web about antifreeze types and which you should use, bottom line  always seems to be what the car makers recommends.

Did find this bit of info, if its true ?

The pink is an OAT (organic acid technology) with the possibility of longer service life, while the red is an IAT meaning inorganic acid technology , and inorganics are considered "conventional" thus les life, though Toyota red does appear to have long life additives as well.

If yours is Red then it will cost you about £24 where my Pink will be £40 via Toyota Online.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/ToyotaOfficialStore/Antifreeze-Coolant-/_i.html?_fsub=10895517012&_sid=1173390832&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

Are the local dealers prices cheaper or dearer ?

 

Edit, are you changing the thermostat as well, might be doing mine as it seemed to take a bit longer to warm up last winter.

[Shimmy]

OC, I have read so much about coolants I've given up. A lot of online chats are American so I'm wary of them because of different specs. Some online say the Pink is the same as the red, just diluted 50/50...which it isn't...as you note.  I'm after the red CONCENTRATE as opposed to the ready mixed. With a 2L limit on the rad filling I think the 50/50 would involve more wastage as the car retains 62% of the flushing water using the dilution method. The eBay Toyota Official seems to be the same price as my local dealers offer, though the ones I rang only stock the 50/50...Takes 2-3 days to get the concentrate. The eBay service includes post for the same price. Ring for your Pink costs.

My local Toyota ( Kingston) are a nightmare. I can never get through to parts and they never ring back if I leave a message. I see lots of posts asking for cheaper alternatives for the red and pink, with very little substantiated positive replies. So I guess like many, they err on the side of caution and buy Toyo Original! Which Toyo make a killing on.

Does it actually say on the bottle for instance...what water is used on the 50/50 premixed? Does it actually state Distilled or De ionized? Distilled in the UK is not cheap and not stocked in local stores in quantity. De-ionised is stocked by Eurocarparts and prob others as well at a much lower cost. The discussions rage over the net about Distilled/De ionised as well. Technical chats, Car forums, expert videos. I've given up on that too...I'm going with De-ionized as it's easier to get in quantity and I refuse to pay the price for Distilled. Distilled in America is available cheap almost everywhere!

Re your Thermostat and slow to heat cabin? I'm just learning about this stuff...are you suspicious the stat is partially stuck open or something, so the coolant gets cooled before engine comes to temp? What's your thinking on it? 

PS...the eBay Toyota official are handy for asking technical queries, rather than hanging on the phone trying to talk to local Toyota, who I've found pretty clueless most of the time. I think on Ebay they have to go away and actually find the answer to be sure their not selling you a lemon.

Strange that my original query has not been answered yet about the expansion tank being part of the system...

[Shimmy]

PS...this is a guy I watch on Youtube. He works mainly on Toyos and Hondas. His vids are informative and his accent his addictive! He has coolant change, Flushing vids also. I can't vouch how correct his techniques and info are however, being a novice myself.

 

[oldcodger]

Yes, you can drive yourself round in circles on the web , think for the few pounds extra then stick to Toyota stuff then you can be sure its right.

If going for alternatives, then Halfords do a Pink range  or my personal choice would be for a well know brand like Comma.

That Peter Finn and others have a lot of ytubes, but as I  have found, some of his methods can be improved upon.

Think my thermostat might be getting a bit tired and opening a bit early etc so while I was drained think its a worthwhile time to change it, saves having to do it all again should it fail shortly after changing the antifreeze.  Again worth buying a decent quality one,  £32 from Mr.T or £22ish for other good brand names, but NOT the £6 one ECP list !

Find my local T dealer ok at giving parts prices or ordering them for next day or two collection, though not asked them for any technical info, though to be honest , would not really expect them to give out such info.; the online store is more aimed at diyers  so suppose its in their interest to be helpful.

Have you got yourself a copy of the Haynes manual, lots of good info for beginners or experienced diyers.

As well this forum, the Car Mechanics magazine is a good read and has a email help line that I have used on the odd occassion.

 

[oldcodger]

Just to add on to the last reply, regarding your coolant expansion tank, unable to find anything to say if that is, or is not,  included in the coolant capacity figure.

However  I would just fill it with a 50% mixture and use a 50% mix in your engine, that should  make the total strength  around 40% , 50%  or 60% , so as I read it, any of those figures is well within acceptable ratios giving at least -30c protection , so short of an ice age , do not think Surrey is going to go that low anytime soon

Also looked at that video, on my rolla and old avensis , there is a hole in the undertray for the radiator drain tap to pour out of, if not on yours might be easier just to cut a suitable hole .. ?

I've just looked at my engine at it has a proper metal drain tap on the rear of the engine block in an accesssible position,  lucky for a change !

[Shimmy]

I know what you mean about that Peter Video guy...I've seen other vids do the same job with less...angst/mess! I can't be ar*** taking the under tray off! I love the moment when he opens the engine drain plug and it pours out onto his camera. What made me laugh is the instant vid cut, then it starts again with no mention of him cursing and cleaning his camera...haha. Sort of thing I'd do that! But he gives me a good idea of the job and he shoots it nice and clear.

Remember OC, using only the rad drain I have a surfeit of 62% left in the system. I will think about your method tho using 50/50 tho. Yep, I have the hole for the rad drain. So that's easy and clean. I'm not going to attempt the engine drain. Like you said that drain bolt could be a real brat. I've worked out the dilution method pretty good I think using concentrated. 2 or 3 flushes to leave almost pure de-ionised in there. Then the last fill will be a full rad of 2L pure coolant... then a drain of 1 L ...and topped back by 1L pure. It gives me 50/50 bias coolant.

De-ionised water found cheapest at SAINSBURYS. £1 FOR 2.5 L. : ))

Seems proper block drains become more common on younger cars. I notice that some modern cars have no rad cap, with the coolant bottle being both pressurised and the filling point. Around the system there are also coolant bleed valves as well to bleed air. I don't know if that's on all brands or just the few Toyo's/Hondas/Bm's vids I've watched. You might have one or two on your later corolla?

It's strange that I can find no mention of coolant expansion bottles being part of the capacity. I've looked all over. No-one mentions it and happily goes about a coolant change. Some don't even check the quantity coming out of the rad and then guess from there. It might be safe to assume that as it is never mentioned...that it is treated separately. I will flush out the bottle and clean out in situ as even the bottle is a pig to get out on mine, It's bolted in below the Battery and tray. Then I'll fill to max 50/50.

Thanks for useful and helpful replies mate.

[oldcodger]

Don't have to buy the Di water as I make my own via the tropical fishes reverse osmosis and DI resin filtration unit.

Not aware of any bleed points on my / the  last version  of the Uk Corollas, its got as standard rad cap and separate expansion tank.

Though the bonnet sticker says change the Pink at 100k miles and thereafter at 50k , it does not give any timescale, though some web comments say 10 years.

Equally other says it still seems good at 140/150k miles .

Think the important thing is the colour, its it a clear red or pink or is there some cloudiness or brown colour suggesting corrosion, when a change and flush are clearly needed.

For the age of your car, has your coolant been changed before ?  if not yours since new ?  does the service book /receipts show if its been done ?

[Shimmy]

It was my Dad's car from new. It was last serviced at Toyo at 79k miles Oct 06. I have all the service bills with no COOLANT showing on sundries/parts. Since then it was serviced at an independent in his village. I have all the bills for those services but again no coolant mentioned. I had a service done at a Local peugeot dealer 2 yrs ago. No coolant again. So I can only assume that their has been no coolant change since new Aug 1997. The coolant looks good red colour and the 2L Rad drain I did came out clear with no particles or debris and zero temp problems showing. Heater warms up good too.

I wonder why there is no time period given. Surely the protective properties diminish over time. I wasn't even aware that a new vehicle from back then could go 100 or even 50k without a coolant change.

I was changing it  A/ because I felt it was due. And B/ Because I thought I'd like to learn how to do it.

I could of had it tested I suppose. Anyway, 2 litres out of it now so I might as well complete it. : )

One slight niggle...when I drained the 2 Litres from the rad I noticed the slightest HINT of oil on the coolant surface. It is perfectly possible I somehow contaminated the coolant inadvertently with my oily hand or rag...Tho I suspect the drain bowl I flushed into had not been thoroughly cleaned from the previous oil change the week before. I will complete the change and keep an eye on that.

That's part reason why I want to keep costs to a min. First sign of head gasket I'll be weighing up the options. : )

[roks]

I did a complete flush couple of years a go, I think mines 6.5litres, after draining the rad and the block, it was about 50% out. I then filled up with di water several times, let the thermostat open then drain. Did this until no sign of pink stuff, after the final drain (rad+block) I filled up with 3.25litre of concentrated pink from Toyota, that's my 50/50 mix.

Don't buy the ready mixed as that will be further diluted by the water in the system.....and don't forget to close both the drain plugs otherwise you'll be thinking where did that litre of coolent go?  like me and get a new thermostat, I went with mr.T, it was about £20, you don't want to flush again if it fails later.

Then you will need to burp the system to get the air out, I stuck a big funnel, cut the bottom until just about fit in the radiator, wrap with insulation tape to achieve tight seal, run engine until all bubbles are out. Its a bit scary when the coolant overflows out of the radiator and into the funnel, keep calm, the coolant sinks back into the max level in the expansion tank after all the air is out.