E11 1.6 GS Automatic Transmission Fluid Queries

[Shimmy]

Hi all. Engine 4A-FE. Just about to do a coolant change when I decided to check on the Auto Box Oil. It is not very pretty. Very dark brown and the slightest whiff of burnt about it. 95,000 on the clock and no evidence of any Oil change in the complete records. It was my Dad's motor and I have all the invoices from new. No leaks and no trouble with the auto box, which more or less runs in overdrive all the time ( 4 speed).

It was used from new as a tow car by my Dad for about 10 years...so not, 'Normal' use.

I've watched and read how to properly read the dipstick, because at cold and on a tiny slope it read well over filled. I did a 'warm' read, through the gears in park on the level...and the warm level was just under warm max. So that's good.

I'm of a mind to do a simple drain from the plug only. Fill with fresh. Then repeat this procedure in a couple of weeks.

I have seen how to also remove the pan, clean the magnets and change the mesh filter...which would be just about within my skill set.

I would prefer NOT to do this. I visual a simple job turning to nightmare with stripped bolts, stuck bolts etc. But if your advice is such, then I will consider doing it. ( Bear in mind I am working parked at roadside with no driveway : (  )

What would your thoughts be guys please.

Also...On one Toyota Service invoice Oct 2002  it lists 75W90 OIL 25 Lt  Qnty 3   Cost £7.49 each. What might that be for? There is no description.

Any alternatives to the very expensive Toyota ATF Fluid, which is £60/70 for 5L!  All it says in the manual is the DEX 11 or DEX 111. I read that later Toyota DEX numbers is all back ward compatible...but at that price, I would expect it should be...and actually be capable of doing the oil change!

I appreciate your advice. I have done a search on here and gleaned bits of info btw. : )

 

 

[oldcodger]

No first hand experience of Autoboxes but from what I have read and seen on tv programs like Wheeler Dealers etc , just changing the oil without the mesh etc being cleaned in not recommended.

As long as you have the right tools and patience then it should not be a problem, though have you got a manual or video of how to do it properly ?

Again think the right oil is very important for auto boxes; 75W90 is whats specified / I use in my  non auto gear/transmission box.

Seems auto boxes are very sensitive to the right oil, so would be wary of anything but Toyotas recommendation, unless some other member with an auto box can say for sure what they have used and proven to be a cheaper alternative.

[Shimmy]

Thanks for your reply OC. Maybe not too many Autos on the forum eh. I've done a bit of reading, but by no means is this gospel.

My handbook merely states ATF Dexron ll or Dexron lll.  Dexron was a GM product. Toyota back then used that spec.

Avoiding the Eurocarparts cheap ATF lll, I have seen good comments for the following brands. Again, I stress I have no experience of these products, just what I've read on Forums....and please note, not just Toyota forums.

Your advice is probably prudent, as usual....Stick with the Toyota official ATF DEXTRON lll. eBay official Toyota site £9.24 1L. They only list 1L bottles, so 5L would be £46.20 inc post.

The other brands that state match or exceed Dex lll specs,  that have good feedback, but NOT necessarily Toyota feedback are:

FUCHS TITAN ATF 4000 Dex lll  5L eBay £28.49

MILLERS ATF SP lll WS ( Compat Dex lll ) 5L Ebay £31.75

One other brand that was mentioned was GRANVILLE'S. Which is cheaper at £25. I could not find very much info/feedback about Granville's but I did notice the Kine Viscosity was higher at 100c on their Dex lll. Both Granvilles and Millers are UK produced. Up North!

' Granville's '... did conjure up images of 'Open all Hours' and Ronnie Barker knocking up vats of the stuff in his back yard...which had a psychologically adverse affect on my research. : )))

Dex lll Products are backward compatible to Dex ll. (Read up carefully Spec V or Vl for backward compatibility!)

Now, all I have to do is decide if I take the risk!

[oldcodger]

You are talking about a £15 -£20 difference to be using Toyotas proper oil.

Could well imagine those other oils you suggests are probably equal but no personal experience, so hopefully someone else might come in say.

Though many use different makes of oil to Toyotas for the engine, gearboxes do seem to respond differently to other makes, according to some in this forum.

Just looking in the haynes manual 2006 edition and it says toyota do not specify any mileage for oil renewal and the manual does not even cover the filter cleaning etc.

Seems even measuring the oil level is an exercise as the pic shows.

Think I would want to get some first hand info on if its necesary /practical to strip out the filter etc. might be like the petrol tank filter which again has no service interval specified.

Have you asked your local dealer if they clean the filter if you ask them to do an autobox oil change ?

[Shimmy]

Good points OG. I have also read how sensitive the auto box is to different oils, mostly on the US forums where autos are common. Manifests as judders on changes and can be a lot worse over time. So you end up at square one draining fluid and starting again. I'll make some enquiries at the local dealers as you suggest.

Autobox changes throws up different opinions. Some never open the drain pan, just the bolt and just drain and top up. Some open the pan, which releases more oil, clean the 3 magnets in the pan and either clean or replace the steel mesh filter. Some go on to have a complete flush, some say NEVER do a full flush on a higher mileage car. Some quick change/flush shops bang any old oil in saying 'there all the same mate'

I probably wouldn't even be looking at this if the oil was even halfway red...but it isn't. Its dark brown with a hint of burnt toast smell about it, which would tie in with my Dad's use of the car for towing. ( Not 'normal' use )

The Oil level check procedure seems to be very important. I did a cold check on the dipstick and the level was well above the HOT max line, let alone the cold line. ( My road is a slight slope and usual sideways camber) Luckily I'd read the correct procedure and tried it again on flat ground at operating temp and it was just under HOT max. 

So I'll take your advice. I'll check recommendations at the dealers first. I'll stick to the Toyo Oil whatever and I'll look again at doing the pan off and filter change. It's not a difficult process as such, all I'm wary of is the odd stuck bolt, which turns it into a real hassle. 

Thanks again for your replies. Ta. : ) ps...just waiting for my Haynes manual to arrive. £2.49 inc post from 2nd hand book store...well I am a Northerner!

[Shimmy]

An update. After speaking to 2 Toyota Service Depts.

I will give you the gist of the replies to my questions...

Dealer 1/  Them: " We don't recommend Automatic Gear Box Oil change. We don't do it. It's not part of a service... But we can do it. It takes 3-4 litres. Cost would be £110 inc oil and vat. ( Toyota Oil is £9 a litre. No other parts were mentioned )

Dealer 2/ SERVICE DEPT. " We would change it because of the age, not the miles. It would be £79 inc the oil and vat, but not parts. No, it's not Toyota Oil. Toyota don't do oil. It includes draining the torque converter.

Dealer 2/ PARTS DEPT. We buy the oil in big barrels. We can order the Toyota oil in. It's £7.62 + vat. They only do it in 1 Litre or 20 Litres. The pan gasket is £12.34. The sump plug gasket is £1.93. The Oil filter is £49.13. We use the 20 L drums and pump it out. ( I forgot to check if the parts includes vat)

These answers did not fill me with confidence. Both branches were 'Up North'

I will now try a South East Branch : )

[TomdeGuerre]

Those sound like reasonable prices to me, I wouldn't guddle around underneath it trying to change the ATF myself for what's involved. The filter doesn't have to be changed, it's the wire screen type and usually only needs washed out.

Are you sure there's a drain plug on the bottom of the transmission pan? A lot of the transmissions I've dealt with didn't have one so you had to remove the pan and it's a very unwieldy thing when it's full of oil & makes quite a mess if it's spilt. Same with the torque converter, a lot of transmissions don't have a drain plug on them so if you drop the pan, clean the filter then re-assemble and fill it up you will still have a fair amount of old oil left in the TC. Most tranny shops have a rig that connects to the ATF oil cooler pipes (or the unions if there's no oil cooler fitted) and flushes it all out otherwise, as you said initially, you have to change the oil again to try and get the most of it new and clean.

I don't know about your particular box but I had a 2004 Corolla with the auto box and it was a really good transmission. Just a by the way, I had a Grand Cherokee and Jeep wanted around £23 a litre for their fluid or - get this - their guy in the parts dept offered me Hyundai ATF at only £18 a litre. I shopped around and got Comma oil which matched the specification at £11 and used that with no problems. 

 

[Shimmy]

Thanks for reply Tom. Yes, there is definitely a trans sump plug. Can actually undo it without raising the car. I believe it is the same size and gasket as the Engine sump. The Auto box on this 1997 Corolla Auto has been without issues 95k miles. The car has never broken down ever...for anything ( It was my father's from new ). The prices from Toyota dealerships were fine...it was their feedback that was strange. It felt like I knew more about it than them, but that may be because they are use to speaking to people with no idea about cars at all. For a service desk to say Toyota does not do specific ATF is weird. That's what this post started with...the cost of Toyo ATF. When I spoke to parts he said he could get it in specially!? Which begs the question...what are they putting in from their big drums if you don't get it in 'specially'?

Compared to some OE ATF prices, Toyota's price seems reasonable. In the states a lot use Mobil 1 ATF 320 or Valvoline. Both Dex ll and lll compatible. Comma Oil is British. I think their up North also : )

I have read and seen videos about the flush machines. Think I'll ring a tranny specialist and see what they advise. Opinions vary on doing full flushes on higher mileage vehicles. Basically the opinion is that if you flush out all the debris, which is worn clutch plate, the worn plates can start to slip. Suggesting that the debris helps them to grip. I have no idea at all on this theory! As I said, I'm just learning this stuff.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[Shimmy]

Just an update that might help others. I decided to just do a drain and fill, with no removal of the pan and filter. The book says 3.1 Litres for a drain/fill (1997 AUTO 4 SPEED 4A-FE E111) . In fact, 3.5 Litres drained out of mine, probably as I was roadside with a slight road camber. I made sure I had checked the level previously on flat ground, at operating temp, through the gears and the fluid was just below max on the hot. Good. I did the same roadside on the slope as reference when doing the job.

 I measured what drained out at 3.5 as a guide to not overfilling with new. I added 3.4 litres back in initially. I drove to flat ground and did a hot check. It read midway between the 2 hot notches. Added the last 100ml. Good. Test drove the car. Good. Checked each day for leaks. All good.

Re: the auto sump plug bolt. It is not the same size as the engine sump plug and the gasket washer is different. See my other query on the boards for the conclusion of that.

Thanks again for your advice. : )

[pauluk]

The type of ATF will be written on the dipstick.

Had the same problem 2001 1.6 gs auto. Contacted Toyota said any kind of Dexron II or III so long as they aren't mixes !! Did a DIY flush because no idea what was already in there. Same as you, didn't dare take off a 22 year old pan, 2 of the bolts felt too stiff put them all back on again.