Does 12V auxiliary battery in Auris Hybrid need to be AGM?

[Murk]

Hi all,

Last week the 12V auxiliary battery of my Toyota Auris Hybrid (2011) was flat. I recharged it and the car starts again, but the Battery might need a replacement soon, as it is 5 years old.

The Battery type number is "S46B24R" which is an AGM Battery. A replacement is very expensive, € 250. 
So I looked for cheaper, non-AGM replacements with the same size, footprint (B00), charge capacity (45Ah), pole location (+ to the left) and pole type (JIS) and found this one:
http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/automotive/blue-dynamic/545-157-033/
It costs only € 66, almost 1/4 of the AGM battery price, while still being of the EFB type (2x longer life span compared to a normal lead acid battery, according to Varta).

So my question is: can I safely replace the 12V battery in my Auris with a non-AGM one?

I've done two afternoons searching online as to WHY the Toyota Auris Hybrid (and Prius 3th gen) has AGM instead of a normal battery, but I cannot find a definite answer. Some considerations:

• AGM is designed for safety because it is sealed and doesn't spill acids in case of overcharging. This is important in the Auris Hybrid because the battery is located in the interior of the car (in the trunk). However, the above-mentioned cheaper Varta 545157033 also is sealed. And in addition, there's a vent hose connected to the 12V battery in my Auris to lead any Hydrogen gasses directly to the outside of the car. The hose probably doesn't fit to the Varta battery but that shouldn't be too hard to solve.
• AGM is designed to handle higher load peak currents. But this can't be the reason that Toyota chose for an AGM battery because the Auris Hybrid gives lower peak currents than a non-hybrid car (the engine is cranked from the high-voltage battery, not from the 12V auxiliary battery)
• Even if the life span of the non-AGM in a hybrid car would only be 2 years instead of 5 years for an AGM battery, it still is less expensive in the long run. 

I hope you can help me with this. Thanks!

Mark

 

[Anthony Poli]

The Battery used in hybrids, have a vent connection for the vent hose.

I would take the Battery out and give it a good recharge via external charger, as the built charging is not upto the job for a deep discharged Battery.

I used a jump starter to keep the 12v line powered up while the battery was removed.

My Hybrid is july 2010 with the original battery, but I had left a OBDII wifi dongle left in for the weekend which caused my battery to become discharged.

Since then I no longer leave it plugged in and haven't had any problems since.

[Murk]

Anthony, thanks for your response. But I already recharged the Battery. So the car starts again, for now. But I am wondering, in case I need to replace the Battery in the (nearby?) future, should I buy an € 250 new AGM Battery or can I replace it with a € 66 EFB battery?

[Devon Aygo]

Toyota UK offer replacement Battery supplied and fitted for £115 does your local Market not offer something similar?

https://www.toyota.co.uk/caring-for-your-toyota/service-and-maintenance/repairs.json

[Cyker]

It should be fine, at least electrically. You'll just have to not go round corners too fast and add checking the electrolyte level to your car maintenance routine :)

Ideally you'd want a deep-cycle Battery rather than a starter Battery for a HSD, but these tend to be quite expensive for some reason and almost always gel or AGM. I'm not even sure if you can get deep-cycle batteries suitable for HSD's tho'.

 

 

[Mooly]

If its a safety specific part then is it worth compromising that to save a few pounds. If the worst happened, then the thought of acid adding to any other problems doesn't bear thinking about. You also have to consider that as a safety critical part, you might possibly be voiding any insurance.

[Murk]

Hi all, thank you for your feedback.

@Devon Aygo: Interesting, I googled at the Dutch Toyota website but couldn't find a similar list yet, but I will take a better look tonight.

@Cyker: I found that deep-cycle batteries are primarily designed for being regularly discharged up to 80%, and still have a good lifetime. So if I understand correctly, a HSD uses a deep-cycle Battery primarily for lifetime? 
Thats good to know (I then can safely take the shot with the Varta alternative). Although I don't understand why a HSD like the Auris needs a deep-cycle Battery. Because, why would a HSD draw more power from the 12V Battery than any other modern car? Any ideas about it?

@Mooly: Fully agree, IF it's a safety specific part. Then it's not worth the risk. But I strongly get the impression that the choice for an AGM-type battery in the Auris is all about lifetime and not safety. After all, most other cars just have a regular 'cheap' battery, and apparently there it's safe enough.

[Bomber209]

Hi, any parts shop will be able to supply you a sealed Battery of same dimensions no problem and 66 euro seems about right. Most nowadays come with a vent hose connection. The 12v Battery only primes the intelligent power controller, I used a 12v solar panel charger hard wired to the Battery terminals (with fuse) to keep things topped up.

[Cyker]

@Murk - re Battery types; Starter batteries are designed to deliver a crapload of amps for very short periods of time to crank a starter motor. They use very very thin lead plates to maximise surface area in order to do this - This means the plates are very fragile and tend to degrade easily. This is why if a normal starter Battery drops below 50% it will incur irreversible damage and corresponding capacity loss.

 

HSDs have absolutely no need for high amp draw - If the ICE needs starting, the momentum of the car is used or the traction Battery drives it directly.

 

The reason deep-cycle batteries are better for HSDs is that, while HSDs don't need high amp draw, they do have a fairly constant amp draw, even when the car is off, and if you're not using the car regularly that draw can easily drain a starter battery enough to start damaging the plates, which quickly starts to drop their charge capacity.

We've had several people go on holiday for 2 weeks or whatever and come back only to find their HSD's completely dead because the ECU has sucked the battery dry, and without a 12v source, the ECU can't power up to engage the traction battery relay, even if the traction battery is still fully charged.

 

[Murk]

@Bomber209: smart idea with the solar panel!

@Cyker: Ok that explains a lot. So the main reason for a deep-cycle Battery in a HSD is the (higher-than-conventional-car) power draw from ECU when the car is off. And a deep-cycle Battery can handle the resulting large drain (when the car is off for a couple of weeks) without being damaged. Thanks! This was the info I needed :)

[Beekeeper D]

I'm getting confused by reading this thread! 

I should have no need for a new Battery for a few years, and when the time comes, here in the UK, the simple straightforward and not excessively expensive thing looks to be to go for the Toyota fixed price offer. 

BUT ... 

I can fully appreciate that a deep-cycle Battery would be much better for an HSD than a standard-type 'car starting' battery. 

And a deep-cycle Battery shouldn't be so badly damaged if it did happen to go flat occasionally - perhaps through being parked way too long. 

But is the production line battery actually  a "deep-cycle" one?  

Just being an AGM doesn't mean it is a deep-cycle/"traction" battery. 

Yuasa's datasheet from http://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/automotive/yuasa-auxilliary-backup-specialist-batteries/hj-s46b24r.html 

says it has "semi-traction" features. (Anyone know what that means?) 

But the RAC describes the advantages of AGM batteries thus -  

Quote

An AGM is a type of car battery that, due to its construction, requires no ventilation and can be mounted at any orientation within the vehicle. Both of these features are seen as advantages in the construction of modern vehicles, adding to the CO2 benefits of stop/start systems.

This type of battery offers several advantages over a more traditional (flooded lead-acid) battery type including:

• The ability to deliver significantly more power a lot more quickly when compared to lead-acid batteries, which is essential for stop /start systems.
• The capability to operate more effectively in lower temperatures, which means improved starting performance in winter.
• Lower maintenance requirement when compared to lead-acid batteries.
• There is no risk of battery leaks or spills.

• which doesn't REALLY sound like what the HSD most needs.  http://www.racshop.co.uk/car-battery/what-is-an-agm-or-stop-start-car-battery.html 

Our start/stop systems don't put added stress on the 12v battery! And an AGM needs NO ventilation? So why does the standard battery have venting? 

Like I said, I'm confused ... is there something out there better-suited to the HSD than the standard battery?

It doesn't have to deal with large discharging (or even charging) currents. Its role is rather different to a standard car-starting battery.  

[Anthony Poli]

3 hours ago, Beekeeper D said:

I'm getting confused by reading this thread! 

I should have no need for a new battery for a few years, and when the time comes, here in the UK, the simple straightforward and not excessively expensive thing looks to be to go for the Toyota fixed price offer. 

BUT ... 

I can fully appreciate that a deep-cycle battery would be much better for an HSD than a standard-type 'car starting' battery. 

And a deep-cycle battery shouldn't be so badly damaged if it did happen to go flat occasionally - perhaps through being parked way too long. 

But is the production line battery actually  a "deep-cycle" one?  

Just being an AGM doesn't mean it is a deep-cycle/"traction" battery. 

Yuasa's datasheet from http://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/automotive/yuasa-auxilliary-backup-specialist-batteries/hj-s46b24r.html 

says it has "semi-traction" features. (Anyone know what that means?) 

But the RAC describes the advantages of AGM batteries thus -  

which doesn't REALLY sound like what the HSD most needs.  http://www.racshop.co.uk/car-battery/what-is-an-agm-or-stop-start-car-battery.html 

Our start/stop systems don't put added stress on the 12v battery! And an AGM needs NO ventilation? So why does the standard battery have venting? 

Like I said, I'm confused ... is there something out there better-suited to the HSD than the standard battery?

It doesn't have to deal with large discharging (or even charging) currents. Its role is rather different to a standard car-starting battery.  

As I understand it, the Battery is chosen for its size and safety features. Not aimed to be a deep cycle discharge, but just for long life span.  It was just the OP that was asking as he was finding the standard fit Battery more expensive than it should have been.

[bursco]

@murk.   

Have you made your mind up about Battery - because it would help me a lot. My 2012 Auris has not been switching on this past month and have not reached the charging stage yet. It has started taking a few extra pushes of the power button for the READY light to appear. Green light comes on with brake pressed but READY light not on, press button on ,off.    Car only done 16000 and maybe the auris does't like short journeys.

So if you make your mind up I would be interested - hybrid batteries are a minefield.  😳 😳

[Anthony Poli]

@murk.   

Have you made your mind up about battery - because it would help me a lot. My 2012 Auris has not been switching on this past month and have not reached the charging stage yet. It has started taking a few extra pushes of the power button for the READY light to appear. Green light comes on with brake pressed but READY light not on, press button on ,off.    Car only done 16000 and maybe the auris does't like short journeys.

So if you make your mind up I would be interested - hybrid batteries are a minefield.  [emoji15] [emoji15]

Have you tried charging the Battery with a modem charger?

I had a problem last year. My Battery is still an original one.

I think you maybe right in regards about short journeys, as the charging in hybrids is less than a non hybrid.

I used a jump starter to keep the car powered up while I took the Battery out and charged it fully. Not had a problem since.

I do a 80 mile motorway trip a month.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Murk]

@bursco: Sorry for my late reaction, I thought I already answered to this but apparently I didn't. But, yes, I've made up my mind. I've recharged the Battery and the past month my Auris started good. So for now I'll assume the flat Battery was a one-time accident, caused by the combination of extremely hot weather that week (30 degrees) and short trips with airco on at maximum power. Next time the Battery is flat again, I'll give a call to a Toyota dealer to ask for their price for a replacement AGM battery. If they ask more than let's say € 120,-  I'll replace it with this non-AGM battery:
http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/automotive/blue-dynamic/545-157-033/
After all my reading on the internet and with the answers given in this topic, I think it's save to use a non-AGM battery, only giving a battery lifetime penalty. 

[Murk]

 

On 2-10-2016 at 1:46 PM, Beekeeper D said:

Just being an AGM doesn't mean it is a deep-cycle/"traction" battery. 

Well, http://batteryuniversity.com/ writes:

Quote

The leading advantages of AGM are a charge that is up to five times faster than the flooded version, and the ability to deep cycle.

So according to them AGM and deep-cycle go hand in hand. But I agree with you that it still feels weird to have such a Battery in an HSD. After all, an HSD has no spike currents from the 12V Battery during cranking up the engine. The only reason can be that IF an HSD has more ECU activity when it's off (and parked) compared to a regular car, it needs a Battery that can be deeply discharged without causing damage to the electrodes. That is where a AGM battery comes in. But I have no clue why the ECU in an HSD draws more power when the car is parked than an ECU in any other modern car...

[Beekeeper D]

I don't believe it is the case that the HSD pulls more out of the Battery when parked than an 'ordinary' car. 

 

But while it is likely only drawing the same amount of electricity (per day) out of its Battery, because the Battery is smaller, that means a greater % discharged, per day, compared to the 'conventional' car.. 

And for that, a battery that can cope with deeper discharge would be necessary if the design took advantage of a smaller, lighter battery, since there was no starting effort to consider. Starting power demand seems to be the thing that determines the size of battery fitted to most vehicles. 

The mystery for me is that Toyota haven't used an even smaller proper deep-discharge (or "traction") battery. The one they chose is only said to have "semi-traction" features - whatever they are, they aren't really the features of a "traction' battery that is expected to survive a large proportion of its charge range being used on each cycle. Perhaps they investigated and found that this battery was adequately good enough for their estimate of 'typical' usage. 

 

However, I can see the point in using an OBD2 reader setup (like Torque) to keep an eye on what the "12v" battery charge level actually is ... and trickle charging it as required. 

[Cyker]

@Murk - Almost all deep-cycle batteries are AGM, but AGM does not necessarily mean a Battery is AGM. The main difference is that car/starter batteries have lots of thin lead plates (high surface area = high peak current capacity but also high fragility) whereas deep-cycle batteries have much thicker lead plates but fewer of them (high density means they take longer to degrade and can survive deep drains without the plates dissolving as much).

Either configuration can support being immersed in glass mats!

@Bee - It is semi true, but not just limited to HSD's. Many modern cars put a lot more load on the Battery when the car is off to run background ECU stuff; The biggest culprits are ones that use keyless entry because they are always actively range-finding the keyless fob. The problem is most common with the HSD's because their 12v Battery is much smaller than normal car batteries, but I believe regular Auris owners have been bitten by the problem too.

As an aside, deep-cycle batteries are NOT traction batteries - The traction battery in a HSD is the hefty nickel metal-hydride pack that drives the electric motors; Deep-cycle batteries are almost always lead-acid. (I don't even know why they still have a lead-acid battery in the HSD's anyway - Surely a second smaller NiMH pack would do the job just as well if not better?!)

 

[Beekeeper D]

13 hours ago, Cyker said:

...

As an aside, deep-cycle batteries are NOT traction batteries - The traction battery in a HSD is the hefty nickel metal-hydride pack that drives the electric motors; Deep-cycle batteries are almost always lead-acid. (I don't even know why they still have a lead-acid battery in the HSD's anyway - Surely a second smaller NiMH pack would do the job just as well if not better?!)

 

Begging your pardon, but although the Toyota HSD "traction batteries" are Nickel Metal Hydride (or Lithium in some vehicles), there exists a category of lead acid batteries that are designated "traction batteries" - one example being the Battery in my mother's mobility scooter. Such lead acid "traction" batteries are designed for repeated deep discharge (so the scooter range is maximised). That is what I was referring to above. 

There was absolutely no confusion whatsoever in my mind with the HSD's traction Battery. 

The lead acid Battery of the type in the Auris HSD is described as having "semi-traction features" - I linked to the data sheet above. It isn't claimed to be designed for repeated deep discharge. Perhaps Yuasa are indicating that the design and construction means that the occasional deep discharge won't do the battery as much harm as it would do to a conventional 'starter' battery. That's what I am hoping anyway! 

 

I see the use of a lead acid battery as being the bridge to all the conventional electrical/electronic components in the vehicle, which are designed and mass-produced to operate throughout the voltage range seen with a "12v lead acid" battery from discharge to being charged. Keeping lead acid voltages by using a lead acid battery allows simple employment of all the electrical/electronic components being used in other vehicles, rather than re-inventing everything all at once, with all the costs that flow from that. 

[Kingsway]

I just fitted a 55ah Mobility Battery to my Yaris Hybrid.  Mobility Batteries are mass-produced, and so tend to be much cheaper than the original Toyota batteries. They are also heavier - ie contain a lot more lead and have a much higher capacity and ability to be drained a lot further without damage.

I got the idea from this  thread on Prius Chat:   

https://priuschat.com/threads/fitting-mobility-12volt-agm-battery.122920/ 

 If I'd stuck with a 32 aH the fitting would be easier - but I preferred to go larger and the  Lucas 55aH does fit into the space okay - I just need to either modify the clamping arrangement a little or make a new one

  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-55AH-50AH-60AH-Lucas-55-12-AGM-GEL-Mobility-Battery-Backup-Systems-/201284099305

I'm hoping to never have to change the Battery again!

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Toyota Battery is £100, so a whopping 50 pence dearer than your eBay item, and would also be mass produced.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/owners/service-mot-maintenance/repairs.json

[Cyker]

Wow, does that fit with the Battery terminals and everything? Nice find if it is!

@Frosty - I think the point here is that the Toyota ones are (AGM?) starter batteries (Unless they've changed their policy on that now?), but the one Kingsway listed is an AGM deep-cycle Battery like the ones we use in our UPS systems, so should be better suited to the low power continuous draw of the HSDs rather than the high-power single-burst that normal engines need.

BTW, if the wipers move more sluggishly when the engine is off, is that considered a sign the Battery needs replacing? The engine still seems to start as easily as normal...

[FROSTYBALLS]

16 minutes ago, Cyker said:

@Frosty - I think the point here is that the Toyota ones are (AGM?) starter batteries (Unless they've changed their policy on that now?), but the one Kingsway listed is an AGM deep-cycle battery like the ones we use in our UPS systems, so should be better suited to the low power continuous draw of the HSDs rather than the high-power single-burst that normal engines need.

Even so the post is misleading and unless one is keeping the car for longer than average, the Toyota Battery would suffice.

[Mooly]

On 3/28/2018 at 6:45 PM, Cyker said:

 BTW, if the wipers move more sluggishly when the engine is off, is that considered a sign the battery needs replacing? The engine still seems to start as easily as normal...

No. The voltage available when the engine is running will be a up to a couple of volts higher than when the engine is off. Doesn't sound like much difference until you work out how much difference in 'power' that difference in voltage makes into a fixed load. This is because 'power' is related to the voltage squared. So a little increase in voltage causes a big difference in 'power'.

Example to illustrate...

A 5 ohm load (which could be a motor or heating element or traditional bulb/s) is connected to a Battery of 12.3 volts terminal voltage. This voltage dissipates 30.2 watts of power in the load. Start the engine and now perhaps 14.2 volts is available. Power dissipated in our 5 ohm load is now 40.3 watts. A massive difference. So the bulbs will be brighter, the motor spins faster and so on.

[Jorrma]

they choose agm because charging method is fixed / constant voltage near 15v. cos agm is happy with such high value imho.