Head gasket failure rav4

[abouttobebankrupt]

We have had our 2010 toyoya rav4 XTR D4D for 6 months and took it to the garage for a recall and they have now found out that our coolant is leaking and think the head gasket has failed. We are looking at a minimum of £1800 but may be way more to fix the problem. Gutted is an understatement. A friend alerted us to the fault with the toyota head gaskets and the agreement that toyota will replace an engine if the car is less than 7 years old and under 103000 miles. We fit both of these criteria but after a lot of reading on here and other sites its looks to me that the problem with the engine got sorted in 2009 which means our engine should have been fine. Is this right? Does anyone have any helpful information, we are terrified of the financial problems this could cause. 

Thanks in advance.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Hello Callie - welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

Was the garage you used a Toyota dealer?

Have a look at the following - 

From that you will see the production dates of engines affected were July 2005 to December 2008. It may be possible that a 2010 registered vehicle may have been built towards the end of this period.

Bear in mind that the Toyota arrangement for correcting this issue is a goodwill arrangement and looked at on a case by case basis, and the period is 7 years or 111,846 miles, whichever occurs first. It does depend on the car having a satisfactory service history (ie proof of servicing at the specified intervals, etc).

So if the garage was a Toyota dealer, ask them to approach Toyota re help with the issue. If the garage isn't a Toyota dealer, the car will need to be assessed by a Toyota dealer, and if Toyota agree to goodwill assistance (which may be a replacement engine or a contribution towards the repair cost), the work will need to be done by a Toyota dealer.

Bear in mind that the arrangement is goodwill, rather than something set in stone, and owners who have been outside either of the two limitations have been refused.

Moved to the Rav4 club.

 

[Mark O]

Firstly you need to establish whether it is truly head gasket failure. For sure coolant loss is a symptom, but it is not conclusive. It may be you have a leaky radiator or hose instead - for example.  Personally I would have a sniff test done on the coolant expansion reservoir - which detects any engine gases passing through, check to see if there any tell-tale bubbles in it when running, and check for mayonnaise gunk under the oil filler cap, Try and ask for a second opinion from a decent independent garage. One trick that worked for me - albeit temporarily on a VW - was torquing up the head bolts a little more. Something to consider perhaps if only a small head gasket leak.  If and only if it is conclusive, then you can fret about the repair.

Once in fretting mode, obtain a few quotes. 1800 is very steep - It should take a decent mechanic about a day to do. Therefore at say 50/hr, that equates to around 400 notes labour. Parts are basically just the gasket - say 30. Plus 20% VAT and should be less than 600 tops....

I do sympathize. i have an 08 T180 and I am a little twitchy about similar happening to mine. To reduce the risk, I always use the most expensive Shell nitro diesel and change the oil and coolant as per maintenance schedule.  

 

[NORTHERN_LAD]

Sorry to hear about your problems, there are lots on here dreading that news. 

When you do find out what the problem is please come back and tell us. 

[Devon Aygo]

7 hours ago, abouttobebankrupt said:

We have had our 2010 toyoya rav4 XTR D4D for 6 months and took it to the garage for a recall and they have now found out that our coolant is leaking and think the head gasket has failed. We are looking at a minimum of £1800 but may be way more to fix the problem. Gutted is an understatement. A friend alerted us to the fault with the toyota head gaskets and the agreement that toyota will replace an engine if the car is less than 7 years old and under 103000 miles. We fit both of these criteria but after a lot of reading on here and other sites its looks to me that the problem with the engine got sorted in 2009 which means our engine should have been fine. Is this right? Does anyone have any helpful information, we are terrified of the financial problems this could cause. 

Thanks in advance.

I would need your chassis number to be 100% however making some assumptions:

There where 2 "known issues" with the 05AD series of diesel engines both where given repair extensions of up to 7 years / 111846 miles:

1, Head gasket failure due to poor gasket design and coolant reaction, this was fixed in production by September 2007 on Rav4 and is now no longer available as all cars affected are now over 9 years old.

2. Excessive engine oil consumption or head gasket failure due to excessive oil consumption, if the engine could be shown to burn more than 0.5 litres of oil in 621 miles or if it could be proved ( by photographing the pistons ) that carbon build up on the piston crowns had caused "carbon stamping" on the cylinder head causing the head gasket to "shuffle" and ultimately leak. This was fixed in production by December 2008 on Rav4 and now almost expired as most cars are now beyond 7 years old.

Its is highly likely that your 2010 Rav is fitted with what Toyota call the 08AD engine which so far as Toyota are concerned was cured of the "known issues" and has proven to be a very reliable unit however it is impossible to guarantee that a head gasket will not fail leaving you in the position as one of the unlucky few that may have a failed headgasket where there is no repair extension in place.

Where did you buy the car was it with a dealer, trader or was it a private purchase? as if you purchased it from a dealer/trader then they should be fixing it for you under warranty and if the dealer/trader is not forthcoming the UK Consumer rights act is in place for you to use and make the dealer/trader sort the issue. 

If you purchased privately then unfortunately you are pretty much on your own you could approach Toyota and ask for a Goodwill contribution towards a Toyota dealers repair but bear in mind they will require a confirmed diagnosis and repair quote from a Toyota dealer and will take into consideration you didn't purchase the car from Toyota nor are the original owners and will most likely decline any assistance based on the lack of Goodwill 

[Heidfirst]

9 hours ago, Mark O said:

Firstly you need to establish whether it is truly head gasket failure. For sure coolant loss is a symptom, but it is not conclusive. It may be you have a leaky radiator or hose instead - for example. 

 

another not uncommon one is a weeping water pump. 

[abouttobebankrupt]

19 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

I would need your chassis number to be 100% however making some assumptions:

There where 2 "known issues" with the 05AD series of diesel engines both where given repair extensions of up to 7 years / 111846 miles:

1, Head gasket failure due to poor gasket design and coolant reaction, this was fixed in production by September 2007 on Rav4 and is now no longer available as all cars affected are now over 9 years old.

2. Excessive engine oil consumption or head gasket failure due to excessive oil consumption, if the engine could be shown to burn more than 0.5 litres of oil in 621 miles or if it could be proved ( by photographing the pistons ) that carbon build up on the piston crowns had caused "carbon stamping" on the cylinder head causing the head gasket to "shuffle" and ultimately leak. This was fixed in production by December 2008 on Rav4 and now almost expired as most cars are now beyond 7 years old.

Its is highly likely that your 2010 Rav is fitted with what Toyota call the 08AD engine which so far as Toyota are concerned was cured of the "known issues" and has proven to be a very reliable unit however it is impossible to guarantee that a head gasket will not fail leaving you in the position as one of the unlucky few that may have a failed headgasket where there is no repair extension in place.

Where did you buy the car was it with a dealer, trader or was it a private purchase? as if you purchased it from a dealer/trader then they should be fixing it for you under warranty and if the dealer/trader is not forthcoming the UK Consumer rights act is in place for you to use and make the dealer/trader sort the issue. 

If you purchased privately then unfortunately you are pretty much on your own you could approach Toyota and ask for a Goodwill contribution towards a Toyota dealers repair but bear in mind they will require a confirmed diagnosis and repair quote from a Toyota dealer and will take into consideration you didn't purchase the car from Toyota nor are the original owners and will most likely decline any assistance based on the lack of Goodwill 

We did purchase the car from a dealer but they are telling us that they do not provide 6 month warranties and unfortunately we have no paperwork telling us about a warranty other than the fact that we declined an 'extended AA warranty'

The toyota garage that have found the problem have contacted toyota for us re the goodwill repair and we are currently waiting to hear the response. 

The info you have given about the engine is very helpful however does conflict with information we have from a family friend who works for toyota - he has informed us that there was another specific problem that affected engines in a lot of 2010.2011 models, again ultimately causing the head gasket to fail. It seems very strange that all the symptoms showing in our car would be a complete coincidence, caused by normal head gasket failure, and not relate at all to the well known fault in these engines?? Especially in a supposedly 'long lasting' diesel engine that is less than 7 years old and has only done 90,000 miles. 

Very confused and worried about the situation.  

[Heidfirst]

1 minute ago, abouttobebankrupt said:

We did purchase the car from a dealer but they are telling us that they do not provide 6 month warranties

They may not provide 6 month warranties but they have legal obligations under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/car-buyers-guide/cbg_legalrights.html

[abouttobebankrupt]

On 10/5/2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark O said:

Firstly you need to establish whether it is truly head gasket failure. For sure coolant loss is a symptom, but it is not conclusive. It may be you have a leaky radiator or hose instead - for example.  

We asked the garage to investigate the fact that the heating in the car wasn't getting hot. They found out that the cylinder head was leaking. They have currently said that it is only a possible gasket failure but this added to the leaking coolant, no warning lights and a sticking thermostat have caused them to suspect the head gasket issue. The biggest issue as everyone else has come across is that they need to take the engine out and do a whole host of tests to get to the bottom of the problem and this is going to cost >£800. 

[abouttobebankrupt]

19 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

I would need your chassis number to be 100% however making some assumptions:

This is the chassis number (from the Registration certificate)

JTMBA31VX0D036742

[FROSTYBALLS]

18 minutes ago, abouttobebankrupt said:

We did purchase the car from a dealer but they are telling us that they do not provide 6 month warranties and unfortunately we have no paperwork telling us about a warranty other than the fact that we declined an 'extended AA warranty'

The toyota garage that have found the problem have contacted toyota for us re the goodwill repair and we are currently waiting to hear the response. 

The info you have given about the engine is very helpful however does conflict with information we have from a family friend who works for toyota - he has informed us that there was another specific problem that affected engines in a lot of 2010.2011 models, again ultimately causing the head gasket to fail. It seems very strange that all the symptoms showing in our car would be a complete coincidence, caused by normal head gasket failure, and not relate at all to the well known fault in these engines?? Especially in a supposedly 'long lasting' diesel engine that is less than 7 years old and has only done 90,000 miles. 

Very confused and worried about the situation.  

Devon Aygo works for a Toyota dealer and is usually very accurate.

Modern diesel engines can suffer quite severe problems - head gasket failures, diesel particulate filter issues, etc, and these aren't just limited to Toyota.

[Mark O]

"We asked the garage to investigate the fact that the heating in the car wasn't getting hot. They found out that the cylinder head was leaking. They have currently said that it is only a possible gasket failure but this added to the leaking coolant, no warning lights and a sticking thermostat have caused them to suspect the head gasket issue. The biggest issue as everyone else has come across is that they need to take the engine out and do a whole host of tests to get to the bottom of the problem and this is going to cost >£800."

Aha....well, three things now spring to mind in the light of this.

Firstly, the sticking thermostat is illuminating and could well be the root cause of HG failure. Clearly if the thing sticks closed then you are not going to get any engine cooling from the radiator, the engine overheats, and the head gasket occasionally lets go. Ensure the thermostat and coolant are therefore replaced regardless. It is a fairly common head gasket failure mode, and if proven to be the case - easily done by sticking the thermostat in boiling water - then at least it eliminates other possible causes mentioned by others, and the head gasket may be replaced - along with the thermostat of course - without too much concern that other causes may cause the head gasket to fail again. 

Secondly, and as aforementioned, there are at least a couple of other easy tests they could do to increase their confidence in their thinking that it is a head gasket failure. Bubbles in the expansion tank are a dead giveaway, and a sniff test done inside the expansion tank should corroborate matters. Have they done this? Have they also offered to nip up the head bolts? Have they checked that the thermostat was indeed stuck closed?

Thirdly,  taking the engine out to conduct further tests seems a little extreme. If they have carried out all the tests above for head gasket failure and found positive results, proved that the thermostat was indeed stuck, and you have no obvious leaks but are still losing coolant, then I would say it is pretty conclusive you have a head gasket failure, and there is no real requirement to look any further for what the problem is, or its root cause.  

 

Personally I would be away to another garage to obtain a second opinion, to corroborate the head gasket failure and the stuck thermostat, and to obtain a more realistic and cost effective approach to solving the issue - which if it is a head gasket fail in turn caused by a stuck thermostat is basically replace gasket, thermostat and coolant.

As an aside, I think you are going to have a hard time claiming from Mr Toyota. 90K miles and 7 years old is not bad going, and whilst admittedly Toyota seem to have had particular problems, this issue does not seem to be related to them. It is also not uncommon for diesel head gaskets to fail.  Try by all means though....  

 

[Devon Aygo]

3 hours ago, abouttobebankrupt said:

This is the chassis number (from the Registration certificate)

JTMBA31VX0D036742

OK as i suspected your chassis number confirms you have the later 08AD diesel engine for which there is no repair extension available from Toyota. However as you purchased the car from a trader warranty or not the Consumer right act applies and can be used to your benefit in this case see: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

[abouttobebankrupt]

14 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

OK as i suspected your chassis number confirms you have the later 08AD diesel engine for which there is no repair extension available from Toyota. However as you purchased the car from a trader warranty or not the Consumer right act applies and can be used to your benefit in this case see: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

Thank you for your help Devon Aygo, devastated is an understatement but appreciate your help. 

I have contacted the trader and they seemed understandably dubious of what I was telling them, the manager is calling me today. From what I was reading if they can prove that there was no problem when they sold it to me then they are in the clear, so I guess thats the next hurdle. It was MOT'd before we picked it up but by themselves so not sure how that will play out. 

If I take the car to an independent garage for a second opinion should I tell them what toyota have discovered already or just say nothing and see what they find themselves? Not really sure what the procedure/etiquette is.

I really appreciate everybody's help on here, it has been huge help already. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

An MOT looks at whether a car is legally roadworthy. A car with a head gasket issue could pass the emissions part of the MOT, so having a valid MOT doesn't prove the issue wasn't there when the MOT was done.

As regards consumer law, see - http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

[Mark O]

Yes, I  have to agree with Frosty, MoT is irrelevant. I think you are on a sticky wicket. If the thermostat that was the root cause of the head gasket failure - and in my view this looks likely - it will be extremely difficult to pin the blame on the guy who sold you the car. As aforesaid, thermostats do stick at any time unfortunately - particularly if you do not change the coolant as per manufacturer's recommendations. One consequence of this is that the head gasket can let go, particularly if you continue to drive around with it stuck closed and no heating coming through the car.   

If you take the car to an independent, personally I would tell them all the symptoms only - not the conclusions Toyota have reached, if indeed they have reached anything definitive - and see if they concur. If they do i.e. head gasket fail, you could ask them to conduct a sniff test, look for bubbles, and test the thermostat if they have not already done so to confirm matters.

[yossarian247]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

An MOT looks at whether a car is legally roadworthy. A car with a head gasket issue could pass the emissions part of the MOT, so having a valid MOT doesn't prove the issue wasn't there when the MOT was done.

 

Yes, I did once MOT an old diesel Citroen that had a badly leaking head gasket, so much so that the tester had to be careful where he stood under the ramp to avoid getting drips of hot coolant on him from the expansion tank! He made some comment about 'pressurizing a bit isn't she?' but as it had no effect on the smoke test, or the roadworthiness of the car generally, it wasn't even noted as an advisory on the MOT and the car passed.

[abouttobebankrupt]

9 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Yes, I  have to agree with Frosty, MoT is irrelevant. I think you are on a sticky wicket. If the thermostat that was the root cause of the head gasket failure - and in my view this looks likely - it will be extremely difficult to pin the blame on the guy who sold you the car. As aforesaid, thermostats do stick at any time unfortunately - particularly if you do not change the coolant as per manufacturer's recommendations. One consequence of this is that the head gasket can let go, particularly if you continue to drive around with it stuck closed and no heating coming through the car.   

So a little bit of a mixed basket of replies....some saying that I can definitely play the 'consumer rights act' card and others thinking that it won't work as the problem is likely to have occurred since I bought the car. I think I am right in thinking that the trader we bought it from has to prove this wasn't present at the time of purchase? How will they do that and this could drag on for months of us not having a car? Such a nightmare. 

The car is up to date with services (I am guessing they change coolant then) and with no warning lights we had no idea that there was a problem other than no heat through the heaters - and as a non 'car savvy' person this didn't seem like a huge issue....car was running normally, no funny noises, no problems with driving. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

If one reads the guidance on the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that I included within my last post on this thread, one will see that the important fact is whether the fault was identified within six months of the sale or outside of six months.

1. If the fault was identified within six months of the sale date, it is down to the retailer to prove that fault wasn't there at the time of sale.

2. If the fault was identified after six months of the sale date, it is down to the purchaser to prove the fault was there at the time of purchase.

Depending when the fault was identified in relation to the sale date, your first step would be to wait for the dealer to get back to you rather than consider second opinions, etc.

 

 

[Mark O]

I said you are on a sticky wicket. I did not say don't try the consumer rights thing though.....Unfortunately, and as per your last para, I think you have exacerbated the problem by driving around with no heating present when (presumably) there should be. I hasten to add that this is entirely understandable if you are, as you say, non car-savvy. 

I agree to wait and see what the dealer says, but I guess the question is did the issue manifest itself in any way when it was sold to you?    

[FROSTYBALLS]

22 hours ago, abouttobebankrupt said:

We asked the garage to investigate the fact that the heating in the car wasn't getting hot. They found out that the cylinder head was leaking. 

 

21 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Unfortunately, and as per your last para, I think you have exacerbated the problem by driving around with no heating present when (presumably) there should be. I hasten to add that this is entirely understandable if you are, as you say, non car-savvy. 

The lack of heating was the trigger for the investigation  

[Mark O]

Frosty - yes indeed, but how long did it take to pull the trigger?  In my experience, head gasket lets go pretty soon after this occurs, and indeed it may have gone so quickly that nothing much could be done anyways. I am implying no blame at all to the owner, simply offering an explanation for events. In addition, if this symptom manifested itself just recently, it does appear difficult to see how the dealer who sold the car is at fault.

[abouttobebankrupt]

Unfortunately with it being the summer we haven't really used the heaters so difficult to say when it first started. Would the heaters stop working as soon as the problem started? i.e. could the cylinder have started to fail a while ago and then taken a few months for the heating to stop? I literally have no idea who it comes to cars, sorry. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The dealer may not be at fault. However, under the new consumer act, if a fault develops within six months it is still down to the dealer to prove that fault wasn't existing at time of sale. If they cannot prove that, they bear the responsibility for repairs or replacement.

[Mark O]

If the thermostat is stuck closed, you will not get any heat into the cabin. Coolant simply circulates around the engine and nowhere else. I think that even if you didn't use the heaters, the problem would have quickly manifested itself elsewhere fairly quickly - engine overheating for one....personally I think it is a fairly recent occurrence. May I just add that you need to be as certain as you can be that you have a head gasket failure and that the thermostat is prime suspect. I am not offering any definitive answers here. 

Frosty - yes understood, but if the root cause of the failure is a fairly recent occurrence - which seems likely - then surely the dealer simply says just that. That in itself is proof that the fault was not existing at time of sale - or am I missing something?