Avensis D-CAT poor cold start

[Kartul678]

Hello.

I have a problem with my Avensis D-CAT 2.2 130kw. Lets start - fault code is P0093 Fuel system leak detected - Large Leak and goes limp mode and now cold weather very poor cold start, like 15 second starting, but when engine is hot, starting normally.

Rail pressure sensor 2 value is 29 000 - 43 000 in idle.

Idle the fuel pressure is 27240 kPa
Injection amount 6.74mm3 / stroke @ coolant temp 40C
Rail pressure sensor 2 value is 0-280kPa when engine not running.

Someone can help me?

20161120_123310.mp4

[HartmannX]

What year and how many KM on the clock?

[Kartul678]

14 hours ago, HartmannX said:

What year and how many KM on the clock?

2007 year and 252 000km.

[HartmannX]

Sounds like bad injector(s) Try to clean the injectors, but replacement can be the solution.

[Kartul678]

13 hours ago, HartmannX said:

Sounds like bad injector(s) Try to clean the injectors, but replacement can be the solution.

Bad injectors cause is poor cold start, but when engine is warm then no problem.

How clean these injectors?

[Duggerz]

Does the poor starting always coincide with the fault code? They may not be related otherwise. That fault code will trigger for leaky injectors but I think there are plenty of other reasons why too. For example the poor starting could be faulty glow plug relay, rather than the plugs themselves, because if one or two failed I'd expect it to start roughly on the other cylinders. Has it got progressively worse? If the injectors have failed, I'd expect to see plenty of smoke, both hot and cold running, whereas for failed gore plugs it would run clean when hot but smoke when cold is that the case? I couldn't find the rail pressure specs, does anyone else know whether these are in spec?

[Kartul678]

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 0:26 PM, Duggerz said:

Does the poor starting always coincide with the fault code? They may not be related otherwise. That fault code will trigger for leaky injectors but I think there are plenty of other reasons why too. For example the poor starting could be faulty glow plug relay, rather than the plugs themselves, because if one or two failed I'd expect it to start roughly on the other cylinders. Has it got progressively worse? If the injectors have failed, I'd expect to see plenty of smoke, both hot and cold running, whereas for failed gore plugs it would run clean when hot but smoke when cold is that the case? I couldn't find the rail pressure specs, does anyone else know whether these are in spec?

Yes, every morning get this fault code when starting. I dont know glow plug status, but if they not work, does the plugs cause large fuel leak fault?

[Duggerz]

No but faulty glow plugs or relay will cause poor starting. Just to confirm, the poor starting and the code always coincide? From reading your initial post I concluded that the code isn't always present. If you know the specifications for rail pressure that would certainly be helpful because it would eliminate or confirm badly leaking injectors. My only reason for asking the questions is that if the code and poor starting don't coincide then you could spend a grand on unneeded injectors.

[Kartul678]

Glow plugs and relay is checked and work.

Only problem is cold start and when engine is cold and drive the car shut off and warning lights goes on.

But when engine is warm no problem.

Engine off and injector feedback must be 0.00? When it shows anything it leak?

Some pictures.

 

[Duggerz]

I think all injectors even new will leak a small amount. As a rule though, I'd they are leaking more than about 25 to 30 ml3 per minute then they must be changed. From the looks of it I can see that cylinder 1 is over that. The real way to test would be to actually measure the leakage from the return if each injector, but for 1ad and 2ad engines that's a problem because they are under the cam cover. In detail, 0.3mm3 x 850rpm =255mm3 per minute. Too much. For all my hopes that it was something else, it looks like at least 1 injector is needed.

[Kartul678]

33 minutes ago, Duggerz said:

I think all injectors even new will leak a small amount. As a rule though, I'd they are leaking more than about 25 to 30 ml3 per minute then they must be changed. From the looks of it I can see that cylinder 1 is over that. The real way to test would be to actually measure the leakage from the return if each injector, but for 1ad and 2ad engines that's a problem because they are under the cam cover. In detail, 0.3mm3 x 850rpm =255mm3 per minute. Too much. For all my hopes that it was something else, it looks like at least 1 injector is needed.

I think all injectors beed to checked by specialist..i try take tomorrow cold start video, and injectors value.

I have no idea whats the problme..

 

[Duggerz]

I think all injectors even new will leak a small amount. As a rule though, I'd they are leaking more than about 25 to 30 ml3 per minute then they must be changed. From the looks of it I can see that cylinder 1 is over that. The real way to test would be to actually measure the leakage from the return if each injector, but for 1ad and 2ad engines that's a problem because they are under the cam cover. In detail, 0.3mm3 x 850rpm =255mm3 per minute. Too much. For all my hopes that it was something else, it looks like at least 1 injector is needed.

I think all injectors beed to checked by specialist..i try take tomorrow cold start video, and injectors value.

I have no idea whats the problme..

 

You may well be right there. Just out of interest I did a check on mine, and although it is a 2.0 it did have high feedback on two injectors, but never has had a problem with starting. In the image you can only see one injector with high and one with low feedback. That makes me think that the feedback values from the obd2 can't really be relied upon.

Having said that, I bet the injectors in mine are getting tired as the car's done 215k miles now, and recently I noticed the mileage decreasing, but less than 2 months ago it passed the emissions test with a comment from the tester on hire clean it was regardless of mileage. Could it be the colder weather? I'd be very interested to know the outcome if you do take it to a specialist. When I was 21 at university, I was getting headaches, so i went to an optician. Of course I came away with a pair of glasses. They didn't really help with the headaches. At 52 I still don't wear glasses. Caveat emptor.

[Devon Aygo]

Toyota has a technical bulletin covering both of these issues ( P0093 & Poor cold start ) the fix is a modified SCV & software update, the bulletin ref is  EG-0044T-0310-EN

Modified valve kit P/N 04226-0L030

[Duggerz]

Thanks DA, that sounds much more like it, I was going to ask if anyone thought that the SCV might be responsible, as I've seen elsewhere here that SCV issues cause poor running. Kartul it looks like you have your answer.

[Kartul678]

Thanks for answer, but i make some videos and rail pressure values, and when i get my car run the injector feedback is -2.7mm/3..

I dont know is it normal? I put 2 videos in youtube, please watch and check the values what i record :)

But if you say the sensor is the problem maybe i try to replace the sensor but why to software update?

[Duggerz]

I really think that the injector feedback readings aren't to be relied upon. The SCV is a valve that fits in the fuel pump and presumably the modified software is because the new valve has different characteristics than the original

[Kartul678]

37 minutes ago, Duggerz said:

I really think that the injector feedback readings aren't to be relied upon. The SCV is a valve that fits in the fuel pump and presumably the modified software is because the new valve has different characteristics than the original

Does the new original sensor fix the problem also?

Tryd to clean the sensor and i bet it chabged already cant find oem part nr.

[Duggerz]

Sorry I don't know the answer, Devon Aygo found the fix maybe he can help.

[Devon Aygo]

Looking at your figures the pressure on the common rail during cranking is maxing out at around 10000 kpa this is way short of the 25000 - 35000 kpa listed a the required spec this suggests the SCV is sticking an causing the prolonged cranking.

Toyota modified the valve to prevent sticking and to allow it to work under higher pressures, the software update increases the cold cranking pressures as well as a load of other fixes.

[Kartul678]

9 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

Looking at your figures the pressure on the common rail during cranking is maxing out at around 10000 kpa this is way short of the 25000 - 35000 kpa listed a the required spec this suggests the SCV is sticking an causing the prolonged cranking.

Toyota modified the valve to prevent sticking and to allow it to work under higher pressures, the software update increases the cold cranking pressures as well as a load of other fixes.

So, need to update the rail pressure value to 10000 - 35000 kpa right?

Original is 25k - 35k?

[Kartul678]

Soneone know can i replace all 4 injectors to 2.2 110kw injectors?

[Devon Aygo]

No the injectors on a 177 bhp 2.2 2AD-FHV are Piezo type injectors all the other models are Solenoid type injectors they are also physically different sizes as the Cylinder head is also unique to the higher power engines

[HartmannX]

Take a snapshot of how many miliamps the SCV valve requires when the engine dont start. High miliamps is a sign of sticky SCV valve

[Kartul678]

Uuh, today i remove the injectors.

When i get my injectors back i check the SCV milliamps.

2 injectors like a new..

Someone know the tightening torques for injectors. 

[Duggerz]

If the injector seals to the cylinder head are copper you'll need the replacement aluminum ones, or potentially you'll have diesel contamination in the oil. You may also need the washers for sealing the puppies as they are only single use. As usual the prices for these bear no resemblance to reality. I think the injector seals and the pipe seals are each about 20 pounds per set. Devon Aygo may be able to help as he works for a dealer.