Another Failing Avensis ?

[ITManW]

Avensis TR 2007 65000 miles (T25) 1.8 Petrol

Engine hesitated slightly a few times "Out of the blue" after travelling about 20 miles at 70 mph on the motorway. A short time later the engine cut out. Fortunately I rolled to a stop on the hard shoulder of a services off slip. Engine restarted and I proceeded to the car park. VSC and TRC off lights illuminated permanently, handbook suggested not a problem to continue, so after a few laps of the car park I continued my journey keeping next to the hard shoulder aswherever possible. Over the next 50 miles or so there were one or two further slight hesitations, then it cut out again, and this time would not restart. Certainly by now Engine Warning light on as well, it may have been earlier. My confidence in the vehicle was lost by the complete nature of the failure, I thought they were supposed to have a "LIMP HOME mode" but this complete cutting out could be extremely dangerous in certain circumstances. Recovery agent diagnosed a faulty Battery. The Battery was certainly now flatish after repeatedly trying to start the carbut it did now start with the aid of jump leads. The Battery was replaed and I continued another 40 miles to my destination without incident. The following day another 100 mile journey home also without incident. My confidence was restored, although a degree of scepticism that this was all about the battery remained.

Over the following week the car was fine on a few short local trips only and then on Saturday after another trip of about 1 mile the same thing hapenned. This time a restart only got me onto a safer slide road before it cut out again. This time it would not restart, TRC VSc and Engine Warning lights on. I walked home. My confidence in the vehicle shattered again.

I went back to the vehicle a few times over the weekend to check whether it would start. TRC off, VSC Engine lights lit. The first time it did and ran on idle for about 15 minutes before cutting out. Subsequent attempts resulted in either failing to start at all or sometimes running for a few seconds or up to a maximum of just 5 minutes.

On Monday I consulted with the local garage I use for servicing and also an independent Toyota specialist I have used in the past. The latter said he had not had any similar problems with petrol models only diesels and that although he had good diagnostics equipment, Toyota's was better (he used to work at Toyota). I therefore decided that although I knew it would be expensive the dealership ought to give a better chance of getting a correct diagnois and complete resolution, I would get the car recovered to the Dealership unless the Breakdown/Recovery agent came up with an alternative solution. This time the recovery agent put his own tester on the diagnostics and reported 4 codes P0351, P0352, P0353, P0354 but did not have access to their meaning, but clearly they were "Per cylinder". I now understand from online research that they relate to the ignition coils, but that they may not be the root cause of the problem. Indeed I understand that failure of these is uncommon and all 4 failing simmultaneosly is extremely unlikely UNLESS of course there is something else causing their failure.

So I agreed to pay £57 for a half your of diagnostic work, with the warning that another half hour may be required. I have now been informed that they have identified the "Coil related" codes, but that they have not yet been able to identify the root cause and are asking me to authorise another whole hours work for diagnosis before they can (or maybe can't) tell me the problem and total costs involved). While I am pleased that they have not simply jumped in and replaced the coils to possibly leave me to then have it fail again in a short time, I am concerned where this may end. My previous car a CarenaE developed a poor running fault at a simiar age while I was away on holiday and the garage (not a Toyota specialist) replaced nearly the entire ignition system (at my expense) before finding the fault was with just one fuel injector. I appreciate that this was before the days ECUs and electronic diagnosis but I am still wondering where this might end and whether my confidence in it will ever be restored!

A quick look at online valuations suggest the vehicle (if it is running of course) is worth anything from £1700 to £3000.

It does not feel right that a 9 year old car with just 65000 miles may end up being uneconomic to repair when the rest of it is in good condition.

How much time should I expect to have to pay for diagnosis?

Any similar experiences?

Any other thoughts/ideas?

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Konrad C]

Chris. I can normally say that you have one of the most reliable engines (since the oil burning fix).

So is the car now running properly after the fix? The cost of diagnostics vary but £57 seems fair. Diagnostic equipment can cost thousands of pounds, and also hundreds of pounds to keep up to date.

You got the diagnostic codes, did the online search and you will got an answer. That is how it is done, and in your case the codes related to the ignition coils circuits. But it does not mean the coils are the issue! A friends Vauxhall Meriva had a similar issue and again the diagnostics pointed to the coils. When I checked the spark plugs, they were in a state! The driver had not serviced the car in years. New plugs sorted out that issue - coil pack not changed. Has the spark plugs been changed?

The important thing is that the spark plugs are Denso of the same spec, as quoted in the handbook. I have only used Denso Iridium plugs in both my Avensis I owned/currently own.

The other possible fault is the alternator or wiring to the ECU/coil pack circuit, and these can be checked by an auto electrician. The MAF sensor can have problems if dirty and not always cause the EML to light.

On the petrol Avensis, if the TRC off, VSC and EML light, the diagnostic should find codes for these. Check the rear brake lights are working properly - my mate had the same car and the warning lights kept coming on intermittently - 

I would not be hasty to sell a car unless faults are hard and expensive to repair - which I don't think so in this case. I think it is one of those unusual unlucky faults. 

How long have you owned the car, has it been regularly serviced, and do you know the history?

  

  

[speedwaydthom]

The above thread may help

The coils on my wife's Renault Megane II failed regularly. This was a common problem with this model and Renault always blamed faulty components

[ITManW]

33 minutes ago, speedwaydthom said:

The above thread may help

The coils on my wife's Renault Megane II failed regularly. This was a common problem with this model and Renault always blamed faulty components

Thanks SpeedWaydthom.  I'd already seen that thread, but it only seemed to relate to individual coil failures. This is showing all 4 have a problem and cutting out completely.

[ITManW]

42 minutes ago, Konrad C said:

Chris. I can normally say that you have one of the most reliable engines (since the oil burning fix).

So is the car now running properly after the fix? The cost of diagnostics vary but £57 seems fair. Diagnostic equipment can cost thousands of pounds, and also hundreds of pounds to keep up to date.

You got the diagnostic codes, did the online search and you will got an answer. That is how it is done, and in your case the codes related to the ignition coils circuits. But it does not mean the coils are the issue! A friends Vauxhall Meriva had a similar issue and again the diagnostics pointed to the coils. When I checked the spark plugs, they were in a state! The driver had not serviced the car in years. New plugs sorted out that issue - coil pack not changed. Has the spark plugs been changed?

The important thing is that the spark plugs are Denso of the same spec, as quoted in the handbook. I have only used Denso iridium plugs in both my Avensis I owned/currently own.

The other possible fault is the alternator or wiring to the ECU/coil pack circuit, and these can be checked by an auto electrician. The MAF sensor can have problems if dirty and not always cause the EML to light.

On the petrol Avensis, if the TRC off, VSC and EML light, the diagnostic should find codes for these. Check the rear brake lights are working properly - my mate had the same car and the warning lights kept coming on intermittently - 

I would not be hasty to sell a car unless faults are hard and expensive to repair - which I don't think so in this case. I think it is one of those unusual unlucky faults. 

How long have you owned the car, has it been regularly serviced, and do you know the history?

  

  

 Konrad.  Thanks for you thoughts.

I've owned the vehicle from late 2008 and 9000 miles. Bought from dealer ex Toyota staff car from Derbyshire.

Regularly serviced. First 5 years or so at main dealer, latterly at local independent Toyota specialist who changed plugs 14 months or so ago at 8th annual service.

I've given the go ahead to continued diagnosis, just hope they now find it is something easy and not too expensive to fix.

 

 

[Konrad C]

1 hour ago, ITManW said:

Thanks SpeedWaydthom.  I'd already seen that thread, but it only seemed to relate to individual coil failures. This is showing all 4 have a problem and cutting out completely.

 

1 hour ago, ITManW said:

 Konrad.  Thanks for you thoughts.

I've owned the vehicle from late 2008 and 9000 miles. Bought from dealer ex Toyota staff car from Derbyshire.

Regularly serviced. First 5 years or so at main dealer, latterly at local independent Toyota specialist who changed plugs 14 months or so ago at 8th annual service.

I've given the go ahead to continued diagnosis, just hope they now find it is something easy and not too expensive to fix.

 

 

Chris, I hope you have a cheap and simple fix too.

The link David made to the post, was one that I responded to, but as you said everything was covered with one important detail. The replacement coil packs must be genuine or very high quality. Even secondhand coil packs are better than some cheap third party brands.

Good luck. 

 

[ITManW]

Today the vehicle failed to fail! So the garage were unable to do any useful testing and have recommended that they keep it for now and try again tomorrow. Fine. But have they managed to cure it by just fiddling with connectors, relays and sensors or has there been something different in today's conditions or is it just that random? After changing the Battery it was OK for 7 days and about 150 miles!

In many ways I see this as the worst possible scenario because I have already lost confidence in it and this does nothing to restore it. The instant complete loss of power is really scary on busy fast roads and I certainly won't be taking it on the motorway for a while.

Oh well, see what tomorrow brings.

[ITManW]

Turns out it was probably the IG2 relay at fault. Allowed garage to test drive it for some while before collecting car last week. !00+ miles done without incident. Currently only using on local non-critical trips until my trust in it fully restored.

[Konrad C]

Chris glad the fault has been "sourced" to a relay (IG2). 

This is fault new to me, and I will have to remember that. So I assume that the garage changed the relay, as it easy to access. 

I had a friend who had a fault when the EFI fuse failed. This was soon after trying to jump start a Lexus. Not sure if it was linked but he was driving when the car went dead. He called me for possible causes, and when I asked him if the EML illuminated, he said no, and not even on first turn of the key. That was when I mentioned that fuse. He had already called breakdown, so mentioned the EML and EFI fuse. He called me to say the had blown, so replaced and car running again. His car was Mk1 with 1ZZ vvti engine.

I think you will regain confidence in the car after a while. If you sell the car, there will be plenty of takers. I had a mechanic friend who sold one for a customer. He had plenty of enquiries and it was gone in days. You may know that Mk2 T25, especially post '06 1ZZ petrols are sought after, compared to later T27 (no hatchback).

Have a good Xmas.  

[Grink]

Hi !

i have a quite similar problem. My engine fails a bit (not stop but shakes) while running and trc off and vsc lights remain on until I erase it via obd terminal. 
the error code are

P0352, c1201, C1241, c0371

is it the relay or just second coil ?

 

thanks for your help !

 

[Grink]

No one ? 
 

please…! 🙂 

 

thanks 

[avensis_2018]

to be honest after 18 years i would say thank you great coils, and enjoy with new set of coils + new set of spark plugs.

just know that used spark plugs for a long time can damage the coil so, try to replace the spark plugs every 50,000km 

have fun.

[Grink]

Thanks for your fair answer !

spark plugs are not so old I would say less than 60mkm

yesterday the engine just stopped while rolling … then it was quite hard to start again but I could go back home finally !

the error code are p0352 and p0171

still just coil or not only ? 
where is that ig2 relay ? So I can test it?

 

thanks again

[m456an]

I used Denso Iridium TT Spark Plugs IK16TT. I think good for over 100 000 miles. On both my Yaris and avensis. No problems for the last 5 years, my Yaris is same age as your car. My avensis is 2 years younger on 103 000.

 

If you have a multimeter you can test all your coils. If you don't - check if it gives a blue spark i.e the spark plug.

[Grink]

I thought one coil failing won’t make the engine stop. But if I unplug just one, the engine stops. 
i guess coils are in cause. 
Must be the cause for unstable engine at low regime. 

i’ll try to replace the second one and see. 
 

thank you for your answers, that’s priceless ! 

[Niky]

I would start with cleaning the MAF sensor and see if this changes anything. Very often it's a very silly issue with this engine