Flickering Dash Lights and Gauges

[PajeroWaala]

Hi All

My Corolla T3 has started a new dance craze.

Usually when I am slowing down or idling (but not always) the dashboard lights will go out for a split second. When they come back on the all the gauges will go down to zero and then jump back up again. This may happen multiple time in quick succession.

It wouldn't be a huge problem, however, on some occasions the gauges get a little over excited. The temp needle will be in the Hot section, the fuel gauge will show full and the rev counter will be about a 1000 revs higher that it should be. Only the speedo will be accurate.

It feels like a loose connection somewhere, but where to start looking. All help appreciated. Thanx

Paj

 

[Notoyboy]

In the absence of any other replies, I'd suggest first check the earth leads, and closely scrutinise the clamps on the Battery for corrosion.  Also check the power (+) lead from Battery to wherever it goes (starter solenoid).  I assume it starts OK?

As you say, symptoms do suggest a loose (or poor) connection. 

Is the alternator belt tension OK?

Dodgey ignition switch, or in the connectors to/from it?

Cheers - Martin

[oldcodger]

Agree with Martins suggestions, plus measure the Battery voltage on a cold engine, then run it at around 2000rpm and measure again.

You should see around 12.4v dc and 14.2v dc respectively, the latter shows if the alternator is working ok.

[PajeroWaala]

Thanx for the responses guys.

I forgot to mention that it does NOT seem to affect the external lights. They work uninterrupted. If it was Battery or alternator related would the external lights flicker too?

[oldcodger]

41 minutes ago, PajeroWaala said:

Thanx for the responses guys.

I forgot to mention that it does NOT seem to affect the external lights. They work uninterrupted. If it was battery or alternator related would the external lights flicker too?

 

Quiet possibly, but for a 5 minute check on those basic points, not worth ignoring.

The dashboard will be powered by electronics that would react far quicker to a  sudden short  power line failure than a bulb.

If its not any of those basic points then you may have a big job trying to locate the fault under the dash with all those wires.

Another basic point not mentioned check all the fuses that relate to the dashboard power, you might have a bad or corroded holder or fuse.

 

Anyone been working recently on the dashboard or electrics generally ?  have not taken a instrument panel out myself, but assume there will be cables plugged in to it so they might be loose...?

[PajeroWaala]

Hi All

I am afraid things have got worse. The car appears to be misfiring and I think this is linked to the dash flickering and needle dancing.

As i said previous the flickering was happening when slowing down or idling, I think this is because that is when the misfiring kicks in (but I hadnt noticed the misfiring). Now that the misfiring is happening more frequently (and getting worse) the dash needles are going bezerk.

Anybody seen this before? Maybe I should state that my Corolla is an automatic just in case that has an effect.

[oldcodger]

That does not sound good...

Not meaning to keep on, but have you done those basic checks we mentioned above ?

It does sound like you have a failing connection on the power source or , more concerningly,  something is shorting out and taking the systems down; which is also a potential fire risk, without being too alarmist.

If you cannot do those things yourself, then think its time to try your local Toyota dealer for a diagnostic , if thats possible given the problem,  or the services of well trusted local garage.

[Notoyboy]

Can't add much to what Oldcodger's said above, but not good if it's getting worse, and it won't be doing the engine, and maybe the catalytic converter if you have one, much good.  Sooner or later it'll give up on you

[PajeroWaala]

Hi All

More unusual goings on.

My mechanic has been looking at this, however he has struggled as the on board diag is producing no output at all. Not even a power signal. He has tried 2 OBD gadgets and both show no input. Could this be caused by a blown fuse and if so any ideas which one? Maybe linked to the flickering dash needles.

As a result he has tried to fix the car using the old methods. First changed the spark plugs that made no difference.

Next is to replace the ignition coils one a time. However the ignition coil I bought has 3 terminals and the ones on the car have 4. Looking on Euro car Parts the 4 terminal pack (code 3ZZFE) is £85 (£30 more than the 3 terminal one (code 1ZZFE)). However, on eBay there are 4 terminal packs for about £30 but they are not 3ZZFE. Is that important. How do I know which code I need or can I use any 4 terminal coil pack?

All help appreciated.

[oldcodger]

Cannot help with the cause of your problems, it does sound like some bad connection or something shorting out.

Assume your mechanic is happy with the Battery, alternator and earth points we mentioned earlier.

All I can say about those coil packs is buy decent , know quiality, ones; eBay cheapies ( unless from a good know source) can just add more problems to your existing one.

[PajeroWaala]

Hi Old

Any particular brands I should go for or avoid ?

[oldcodger]

16 minutes ago, PajeroWaala said:

Hi Old

Any particular brands I should go for or avoid ?

Sorry , no idea for those parts.

My point was, buy from reputable suppliers , if not Mr.T

Though ebayers may say the parts they have are brand names, its well known that on popular items there are lots of inferior fakes.

Though many ebayers are good sellers, our problem is knowing who are ??

 

[PajeroWaala]

 

HI All

Been doing some research and came across this article in the states 

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/104-5th-6th-generation-2002-2006-2007-2011/446450-flashing-dash-lights-rough-idles-misfire-dead-batteries.html

Could my problem be down to the alternator chucking too much voltage intermittently. I have had a dead Battery yet but a new one put in just 8 months ago when I bought the car. It hadnt been used for months hence needed replacing.

 

Whats the best way to investigate the alternator? is it just to use a multimeter to check voltage output, but I might need to do that whilst in motion. That could be tricky.

[oldcodger]

It could be, either the regulator is letting out too much voltage or the diodes are faulty letting a lot of AC votlage through.

Either way, unless you know exactly what to look for you might not see such a fault on a simple meter.

I assume that when you start the car on these cold mornings it jumps into life very quickly or does it need a good long chug on the starter ?

If it fires up quickly it kind of suggests the Battery is strong and well charged.

Measuring the DC voltage across the Battery terminals with  about 2000rpm should read about 14.2v DC on any simple meter, if the alternator is ok at that time.

Just hold the pedal down with a stick up against the seat.

However it could still be breaking down under load / heat.

Would  think you know when its likely to go funny  ?

What I would be tempted to do,to prove if it was the alternator, is get the car warmed up, so its likely to give  the fault, then disconnect the alternator or its fuse etc and run the car and see if it gives the error.

Though be warned , disconnect the Battery before doing such things, its only 12V but it has a massive current that can be lethal.

You will get the dashboard red charging light but if the battery is strong it will run many miles without the alternator, though have a spare or jump start handy if you do.

 

The atlernative is to take the car to a good Auto Electrician who should be able to prperly test the battery and alternator for you.

 

[Notoyboy]

That's an interesting thread you've found, suggesting maybe alternator's voltage regulator going beserk at random intervals.  With my limited electronics knowledge, I'd say maybe, and worth considering.

Do you get the problems when ticking over in neutral?  If so, then in the comfort of doing it at home, I'd put a multi-meter (electronic, rather than analogue) across the Battery and watch.  My thinking (willing to be shot down by others) is that if the voltage spiked, you might get a quick rise and fall on the meter's display when the needles go dancing and/or the engine misses.  Not worried about the value on the multimeter, so much as the fact it happens. I'm wondering if the Battery could act as a smoothing device, so your voltages don't climb too high, else you might fry some electronics.  If the Battery voltage resolutely sits at about 14.2-14.4v, even when revved, then maybe the fault is elswhere.  Interesting that the lights (assume you mean headlights) don't flicker.

Does the needle dancing & flashing dashboard just happen in milliseconds - ie. it's over before you know it? How long does the engine misfire happen - seconds or minutes?

You don't have access to a spare alternator to try as a substitute?

How many miles has the car done?  Bit puzzled that your mechanic has been unable to read/get anything from his OBD reader.  However, I don't know in what year the Corolla had a live/useful OBD.

[Notoyboy]

Sorry, posted twice - was trying to edit in light of Oldcodger's reply

Don't think Oldcodger and I disagree on anything, though in the back of my mind there's something nagging me about not disconnecting the alternator whilst engine's running.  Worth checking this with auto-electrician?

[oldcodger]

17 minutes ago, Notoyboy said:

Sorry, posted twice - was trying to edit in light of Oldcodger's reply

Don't think Oldcodger and I disagree on anything, though in the back of my mind there's something nagging me about not disconnecting the alternator whilst engine's running.  Worth checking this with auto-electrician?

Noo..  Not saying disconnect it While the engine is running,  ....Turn the engine off, disconnect the Battery, then the alternator feed.

I had the main fuse from my alternator blow on my old  Avensis once, it carried on running for over 80 miles to get me home before the Battery went too low.

 

I wonder how much money Paj has spent on parts and labour so far ?

 

Most car Battery garages will do a proper battery test for free, expect they should be equipped to do an alternator test for a small fee.

Seems like £150 is the average price for an new alternator,  though ECP do one at £110.   No point getting a scapper  /  s/h one as you have no idea that does not have similar problems .

[PajeroWaala]

Initially I noticed the dancing needles when slowing down, so could it be that the alternator is generating high output at speed but not reducing quickly enough when slowing down. Then it was doing it at idle too intermittently. 

The misfiring is also most noticeable at idling and slowing down. But am I right in thinking that if a coil pack has been damaged due to high voltage it will remain broken until replaced ?

This is my plan for the weekend.

1. Check the fuse for the ODB port. I could do with fuse map for the fuse boxes so I know which fuse is for what.

2. Test the alternator the best I can.

3. Is it worth replacing the coil pack first or do it at the same time as the alternator.

 

[Notoyboy]

7 minutes ago, oldcodger said:

Seems like £150 is the average price for an new alternator,  though ECP do one at £110.

Until a couple of years ago, I regularly used a forum for french cars.  Some members had bad experience of items from ECP, though I had no problems with the discs & pads, and Bosch Wiper Blades, which I purchased. Pays yer money...................

[PajeroWaala]

What about remanufactured units, fully tested and guaranteed for 90 days. Are these any good?

[oldcodger]

6 minutes ago, PajeroWaala said:

What about remanufactured units, fully tested and guaranteed for 90 days. Are these any good?

Should be, depending on their quality control, whats the price difference with that ECP £110 one ?

[oldcodger]

If you want to test your alternator yourself and have or can buy a  meter that does low DC and AC volts then follow these two good videos.

I have just done those tests on my car and they agree with what they say.

At cold, 2 hours since I last drove the Battery measures 12.5v dc

At at 2000 rpm or any revs above, it stays stable at 14.3v dc

The Diode test just shows a very low , slightly fluctuating  0.01v AC

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11jbHS4XXXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofhrTfBR0g8

 

[oldcodger]

Just a footnote , as some of the other similar ytubes show, with a dc meter setting you can also check all the connections between the alternator and Battery /engine are good without having to disconnect anything.

That meter like I used is on eBay for less than a tenner and from UK stock; many other cheap meters do not seem to measure very low AC voltages.

Old saying from work ,never replace something until you have proven its faulty.

[PajeroWaala]

I have a very good professional multimeter. I just dont know how to use it. Will need to research ytube videos to train myself on it.

Lets see what the weekend brings. I hope its not snow.

[oldcodger]

Would be interesting to see a picture of your meter or a link to its site / make / model number

We can then guide you regarding its settings, its not rocket science, but can understand your reticence if you have never used one.

 

Those 2 vidoes simply require you to connect your meter probes to the Battery terminals, croc clips help if your leads have them, otherwise use some form of clamp to hold the test probe on.

If,   those 2 tests do not look right and suggest that you are loosing voltage in the wiring between the alternator and Battery then this video shows how to test them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGB6ZEjGm7Q

Again nothing to disconnect.

 

It took me all of 2 minutes to test mine, it really is simple enough, but shout if you have a problem.