Latest Hybrid STILL not better than Diesels???

[Wayne2015]

[cobh18]

Going by the description of the CVT transmission in the Prius as belt driven (page 64 of Feb 17 edition) I don't give much credence to Which on motoring matters! They continue the line that there is a loud whine from the CVT when accelerating: psychosomatic?  "As the engine revs up to deal with the increased strain of motorway speeds or inclines, you'll get a loud annoying whine from the gearbox. When coming downhill, the CVT whine is replaced by the loud drone of regenerative braking (essentially the car turns into an electric generator when braking or coming downhill, using the power to charge up its batteries). Hearing the car whine and drone makes it feel strained, and that's when the weight of this 1,800kg SUV becomes a bit more apparent." Not driven the Rav4 but it seems a bit odd, especially as they give 4 stars for refinement and noise:)

[Cyker]

To be fair, this doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.

Petrols naturally produce higher CO/CO2 emissions than diesel - This is why they're usually cheaper to tax. (Under the old rules anyway; I'm ****** at the discriminating against us DERV people after such strong encouragement to buy a diesel car!) so in situations where the hybrid can't leverage the electric motor (i.e. long motorway runs) all the fancy tricks go out the window and it'll basically run like a heavy petrol car!

Diesel has always been better for moving a load and for long distance driving - Even these new hybrid trucks are diesel-electric, not petrol-electric.

But I think they don't give the hybrid RAV enough credit - >80mpg in town!? Even my Yaris couldn't do that! So the RAV would be a perfect Chelsea tractor for the type of person who buys a 4x4 but would never take it anywhere near mud! Given the number of these things (4x4s and SUVs) being used on the school run that can't be a bad thing...

They certainly couldn't recommend the diesel down here in London since all diesel owners are probably about to be ****** up the **** by the new low emissions zone. 

But what the heck is up with the size of the RAV now?! A friend of mine has an old one and it's half the size of the newer ones! I actually can't tell if I'm looking at a Land Cruiser or a RAV4 half the time! 

As for the whine, I assume they mean the petrol engine ramping up sharply under heavy acceleration? That seems to be a thing with CVTs and some hybrids (It seems to be worse in hybrids which have not-quite-powerful-enough engines like the 1.5L Yaris HSD)


 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Didn't give too much credence to this as they're comparing a 2.0 litre diesel (143bhp) and a manual gearbox, with a 2.5 litre hybrid (197bhp) and an auto gearbox.

Being  a Which? member, a bit disappointed that the comparison isn't equal.

[Anthony Poli]

I saw more negative reviews about my Auris hybrid, but I remember on a very old top gear, with a golf diesel and how they tried to get the quoted mpg.

Vw just replied with, it wasn't being driven properly.

So it is probably the thing in this case.

I have driven diesel cars and vans for work, but would never have one for my own personal car.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cyker]

Out of curiosity, do we know what kind of engine that 2.5L is? I'm wondering if it's a standard engine or if it's been eco-fied.

The Lexus RX hybrids were hilarious - Rather than some eco'd up engine, they took the same V6 that the petrol ones and stuck that to the hybrid system. Those things could *haul*. 

The difficulty with the toyota miller/atkinson-cycle type engines is they perform like much smaller engines - the 1.5 in the Yaris HSD feels more like a 1.0 and the 1.8 feels more like a 1.4 or 1.5 - so it's hard to compare them on CC alone, esp. since the maximum fuel charge they can take isn't even close to their CC.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

I've provided Which? with some feedback on the comparison, and also made them aware the price comparison is biased towards the diesel. They compare the Active trim level (diesel) with the Business Plus (hybrid), whereas if they had compared both models in Business Plus trim, the price difference would have narrowed to £1,100 (£27,430 diesel and £28,530 hybrid), instead of the £5,935 difference of their comparison.

[Heidfirst]

Also, no mention of lower NOx emissions or that resale values of diesels may be about to tumble over the next few years ...

In the US (so more strangled than in Europe) the Toyota 2.5 produces 178bhp on it's own so 197bhp from a hybrid system using it would suggest to me that it has been eco-ised to some extent.

[johalareewi]

23 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Didn't give too much credence to this as they're comparing a 2.0 litre diesel (143bhp) and a manual gearbox, with a 2.5 litre hybrid (197bhp) and an auto gearbox.

Comparing a Toyota Hybrid (petrol automatic) with a manual diesel has been going on for years.  They should use an automatic diesel at least.

[QuantumFireball]

On 22/01/2017 at 6:39 PM, Heidfirst said:

Also, no mention of lower NOx emissions or that resale values of diesels may be about to tumble over the next few years ...

In the US (so more strangled than in Europe) the Toyota 2.5 produces 178bhp on it's own so 197bhp from a hybrid system using it would suggest to me that it has been eco-ised to some extent.

It uses the 2AR-FXE, which is the Atkinson cycle variant of the 2AR-FE (the normal 2.5 straight-4 found on the RAV4, Camry and some other US-market Toyotas).

And yeah, comparing CO emissions but not NOx or particulates (the biggest causes of local pollution and respiratory problems) is pretty pointless.

[+Steve]

Diesels have had their day, i'll give it 10 years

manufacturers have plans to fizzle the production out. I think a couple already have.

 

[MEP's Yaris GS]

So Derv is apparently £200 a year cheaper to run, but will probably need a new DPF within a decade of production which will soon wipe this annual £200 saving out.

[Heidfirst]

but the hybrid costs £1k+ more to buy in the first place (& if you don't need Business Plus trim or auto potentially £4k more).

Tbh which is better/cheaper is going to be an individual calculation depending upon your requirements, how many & what type of miles that you do, how long you keep it etc..

[YarisHybrid2016]

I've yet to be convinced diesels are "better" for motorway driving. Just came back at the weekend - 62 MPG in my Yaris Hybrid. Would a diesel really do better??

As for this comparison - need to know much more about the test conditions.

Regarding the "complaints" they make about the noise under heavy acceleration in a Hybrid, I would guess I'm not bothered by it! These people do actually understand why it sounds the way it does, right?!

[PeteB]

5 minutes ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Regarding the "complaints" they make about the noise under heavy acceleration in a Hybrid, I would guess I'm not bothered by it! These people do actually understand why it sounds the way it does, right?!

I'm not convinced it's actually that noisy - I think it's that the Hybrid is so quiet most of the time it is more noticeable the odd time it raises it's voice a little.

In any case, I discovered nearly 300,000 Hybrid miles ago that squeezing the loud pedal quickly gives almost as much of a shove as stamping on it, but with much more refinement. 

I'm sure some automatics I've had are as loud, if not louder when using kick-down, as would be thrashing many a manual past 70 mph in 2nd gear!

[Duffryn]

A diesel as described once by Jeremy Clarkson :- "It's something that has a hairy elbow sticking out of the window!" Can't stand Clarkson, but always liked that one.

[Anthony Poli]

3 hours ago, PeteB said:

4 hours ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Regarding the "complaints" they make about the noise under heavy acceleration in a Hybrid, I would guess I'm not bothered by it! These people do actually understand why it sounds the way it does, right?!

I'm not convinced it's actually that noisy - I think it's that the Hybrid is so quiet most of the time it is more noticeable the odd time it raises it's voice a little.

In any case, I discovered nearly 300,000 Hybrid miles ago that squeezing the loud pedal quickly gives almost as much of a shove as stamping on it, but with much more refinement. 

I'm sure some automatics I've had are as loud, if not louder when using kick-down, as would be thrashing many a manual past 70 mph in 2nd gear!

After a year and 3/4 owning a hybrid, I have also got the hang of picking up speed without needing to mash the peddle into the carpet. So the engine noise isn't as noticeable, if I had wanted a sports car, I wouldn't have bought a hybrid.

I used to drive a diesel car for my previous job and that was enough to put me off having a diesel.

 

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[Cyker]

I think it's something you'd have to get used to as it's weird - Most drivers are used to there being more of a relation between the engine noise and what the cars is doing; Do not underestimate the importance of audio cues to the brain.

I find driving HSD's weird and slightly eerie because of the disconnect between the engine and what the car is doing - As Ant says, the fact that the car is normally really quiet just highlights those moments when the engine gets noisy. I suspect I'd get used to it after a while, but if you only drive one now and then its a bit unsettling.

 

It's like how people mock the diesel knock, but to us DERV drivers it's quite soothing because we're so used to it :) Not to mention this myth that diesel engines are noisy at speed, when actually they're usually quieter than petrol engines as they can be doing half the RPM for the same speed!

 

@YarisHybrid2016 - 62mpg is very good for the Yaris HSD; Most people seem to be in the 55's for that kind of journey so well done! :) I typically get low-mid 60's in my 13 year old Mk1 Yaris D4D, although if I *really* try I can get it over 70. My all-time record was something like 80mpg for near-pure motorway driving but I feel a lot of luck went into that one (Massive luck with traffic, even wind and temp were optimal!) The hypermiling record is something like 120mpg so the potential ceiling for at least the Mk1 Yaris is pretty high.
 

[APS]

This is poor show by Which?. Their analysis seems so superficial and uninformed (I'm referring to their analysis in general nowadays). I understand they have to try to dumb-down articles to a certain degree to make them more easily digestible for everyone. But, they should at least acknowledge the compromises they have made; the factors they have disregarded in order to simplify a comparison. Mind you, judging by this article, they could pretty much discredit the entire report; yeah, we ignored the fact that we compared a manual to an auto, we compared the price of two different model grades, we ignored that in our experience servicing and repair costs tend to be higher on diesels, we also have not accounted for differences in future depreciation, we ignored any differences in non-CO/CO2 emissions (and we also ignored current research on the dangers of these emissions and the consequent moral implications of choosing a diesel). What we did find was that you will pay more for fuel with the Hybrid. Ta-da!  

 

 

 

[Ancient Nerd]

APS,

I absolutely agree with you about Which reviews. Generally the content of the reviews is quite reasonable, although the reviewer sometimes goes to excessive lengths not to be seen as an expert. The summary, which is all many people read, looks like it has been written by someone else, who hasn't bothered with actually reading the body of the  report.  It has been that way for a very long time indeed. 

I first read a review of three small cars in 1972, comparing a Citroen Dyane, a Renault 4, and something else (I wasn't interested in that one, so can't remember what it was).

The report said that:

• All three cars were dangerous, but only because all small cars (at that time) were dangerous. True, I'm sure that all would have got an NCAP rating of zero. No significant distinction was made between the cars. FWIW fitting (but not wearing) seatbelts had only just been made compulsory
• All three cars were noisy. The Citroen was the worst, but not by a great margin. Again, the report said that this was to be expected for a small car (at the time).
• All three cars were not blessed in the performance stakes. All had roughly similar top speeds and acceleration.

The summary said do not buy the Citroen, because it is dangerous, noisy and under-powered. No mention that the body of the report said the same of the other cars.

I ignored the summary, bought a Dyane, fitted it with soundproofing and had the most fun car  I think I have ever owned or driven for six years.

I still use the information in Which reports, but ever since I have never taken a summary at face value, as they still give the appearance of having been written by a highly biased manager. 

This post probably explains my member name on this forum.

[kithmo]

The Dyane was the posh version of the 2CV with moulded in headlamps IIRC. A mate had one in the 70s, used to take the lads out in it, imagine it, 6 or 7 18 year old lads on a night out, boy did that thing have some body roll, very comfortable though.   

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Ami also used the 2CV chassis and running gear - the Ami Super used the 1015cc engine from the GS.

Remember a work colleague had a left hand drive Ami 8 - overtaking was an experience ....

[APS]

16 hours ago, Ancient Nerd said:

I ignored the summary, bought a Dyane, fitted it with soundproofing and had the most fun car  I think I have ever owned or driven for six years.

Aha - good to see another connoisseur of classic Citroëns! Glad to meet you.

Apologies for taking thread off on a tangent.

 

The Lexus NX (RAV4 in Lexus dress) typically average between 30-40 MPG in day to day driving so we can agree with Which? that it's not the most frugal car, but for an automatic 4x4 it's not too bad at all.

[Whitton Race]

I hope this is a suitable place for me to post as I am looking at swapping up my car and the default would be a Mondeo diesel for mile-munching on the motorway to over 30K per year.  BUT there is all the uncertainty over how diesels will be treated going forwards and, living on the edge or London suburbia and at only 70 CO2, I took a Prius out for a test this morning and I found it rather mixed.  The dealer was very accomodating and allowed me to do a motorway run but, to be fair, when there is so much different between a diesel mile-cruncher and the hybrid that any short test drive is always going to leave questions.

There was a lot a liked about the car, particularly the technology and safety features, but I never found that it really settled down into its stride and with the 'novel' dash / console arrangement it never felt as cosseting as many of the similar motorway diesel vehicles that are available - some of that is personal 'fit' (I found the door armrest a bit low) but the absence of the 'flowing' centre console like you find in a 3-series or A4 makes a big difference.  I know this is not needed on a hybrid as the drive train does not need the tunnel like a more conventional car, but the C-HR and Auris hybrids both had a more driver-focused interior.  Some things did seem to have been done 'oddly' either just for the sake of making a statement (foot handbrake) or through just being poor design (inaccessible minor switches and a reach to the gear selector) - again these seemed all better placed in the C-HR and Auris.  Some aspects are personal choice as well, but the glossy plastics are un-common in the market-place and if what was there was lifted up with a sliding cover like many cars have it would give more flexibility and security as no need to leave things on open display.  Price-wise this car is competing directly with the main-stream company cars, so the experience has to be there too.

On the short run it was hard to tell if the power was there for proper motorway driving and manoeuvres, even our roads are empty enough not to need a great deal of overtaking early on a Saturday morning.  The Prius is a small engine (100 BHP or 120 BHP including electric motor) compared to the 150 BHP that is more typical in the car I would choose (I know the super-eco diesels are around 100-110ish but that is not what I would choose).  I was also really concerned to understand what fuel consumption I would actually end up with - whether it would compare to a Diesel under similar motorway mileage, or whether it would be like having a normal petrol saloon car in terms of visiting the petrol station.

There was a lot I liked about the Prius and a lot I wanted to like, but I am hoping contributors here can give real-world insight into what this will be like on the motorway for power delivery and fuel.  If I still doubt the Prius after that (but not the Hyrbird) I may look further at the C-HR or Lexus options.

[FROSTYBALLS]

You would probably be best starting a new topic.