Help! POA94 Fault Code. "Inverter Assembly"

[markymark33]

Dear forum members,

Would really appreciate any help/advice. I am writing on behalf of my father-in-law(aged 82) who has been a happy and contented owner of a 2010 Prius (will be 7 years old in early March 2017).

Just recently when out driving, the dashboard lit up like the proverbial Christmas Tree (rectangular box with "Check Hybrid System" and engine management light/+handbrake light/+traction control/+warning light) accompanied by loss of power (still drivable  but not above 35mph). As you do in situations like these I did a google search and came across similar issues for owners on this forum and plenty more on the US of A forum. The car is at the Toyota garage where we have been told the fault code is "POA94" or DC connector performance fault with the lead mechanic saying it needs a new "Inverter".Cost approx £1500!! The car is out of warranty and my father-in-law chose not get an Extended Warranty last year.

During the google search,I have discovered this is a common fault for this age of Prius but I get the impression that in America/Canada this has been covered by a RECALL (and is fixed) regardless of age whereas here, it will be covered only if you have taken out an Extended Warranty. I have been in touch with Toyota UK (have not been helpful) who are basically saying "tough luck". Without wanting to sound naive, we are aware that cars can go wrong and can be expensive to fix from time to time, but if this is a KNOWN issue/FAULT which is subject to a recall in other markets then why not here also?. It is a Japanese car after all and Toyota is a global company. We have worked out that any cost savings my father-in-law has made by buying a Prius over the past 7 years, have all been made irrelevant by this happening now. Unlike a normal (ICE) car  this seems like an overly expensive part (compared to your typical clutch for example). Would I  recommend buying a Hybrid and keeping it long term? I think not now. When will it go wrong again? A replacement part will come with a 1 year warranty..

The car has been fully serviced by Toyota annually (6 services at the same dealership) and this fault is not covered by the "Hybrid Health Check" . It has covered just 40,000 miles so low mileage also.

Any advice from members? Did not know where else to get advice from.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Does the car have a Toyota service history?

The recall system in the US is different to that in the UK. In the UK, for an official recall (ie via DVSA) the issue has to be safety related, and there has to be a sufficient number of complaints to DVSA before a joint investigation with the manufacturer will take place.

[markymark33]

Yes, full Toyota service history as stated above (6 services). Next service (it's 7th)  due next month.

[BhxTrev]

Hi Mark,

Folks on this forum like Frosty will give you the best advice if they can.

I've just part chopped my 2010 Prius that had done 60,000 miles for the new model. I had the car up to September 2016 & other than new tyres, services & MOTs, I never paid out for anything whatsoever for this car - no brake pads or any MOT related issues either! I did however purchase an extra couple of years warranty, which although I never needed, I felt was worth while.

It does seem a lot of money for replacing the inveter but I can remember many years ago buying a turbo diesel Ford Escort & the turbo went just outside the 3year warranty & it cost over £1000 to put right! Put me off diesels forever!!

If it's of any comfort, it might well be worth while having the job done since if the cars only done 40,000 miles, it seems to me from my experience that you've probably got a lot of trouble free motoring ahead. On the down side I doubt if you have a case to expect Toyota to pay or even subsidise the problem.

[Duffryn]

Think I'd disagree slightly there with the last sentence. Surely one wouldn't expect a 7 year old car with 40k on the clock and a full manufacturers service history to require £1500 to normally be spent on it at this point in its' life.

Sounds like some material/manufacturing defect to me, and I would certainly expect some kind of a sympathetic response from Toyota, and would send plenty of letters to them (as high up the chain as possible) to try and make'em take notice too.

Mark, you say 'lead mechanic' - have you asked for a written quote signed by somebody in authority (dealer principal perhaps), or tried a different dealer, or independent qualified engineer, or anything that might create a stink/raise a few eyebrows etc. "An 82yr.old shouldn't be ripped off like this etc.etc." type of publicity might 'encourage' Toyota to be a bit more attentive. 

[kithmo]

Didn't the 2010 have 8 years hybrid warranty, inverter is part of the hybrid system ?

Or was the 8 years just the Battery ?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Between 2009 and 31st May 2010, the hybrid components and hybrid Battery were covered by a 5 year/60,000 mile warranty, whichever came first. As the car in question will be 7 years old in March, this will be the warranty period the car is covered by.

When you contacted Toyota GB, was it just the recall that you asked about? If so, as stated earlier, the recall system in the UK is different to that in the US, so I'm not surprised the answer may have been negative.

Think the best way forward would be to approach Toyota GB regarding a goodwill contribution towards the cost of the repair. However, note that a contribution may not be the full cost.

The dealer may be prepared to contact Toyota GB on your behalf, especially if the car has a full Toyota service history.

Otherwise, contact Toyota GB yourself in writing (e-mail?), explain the circumstances of your father-in-law, the fact the car has a Toyota service history, what the fault diagnosis is (including the fault code) and where the car is currently. At the end of the day, you will be asking Toyota GB to provide some goodwill, so ensure the contact is polite but to the point - as you're asking the organisation for help, there is no point in contentious or otherwise.

Let the forum know how you get on.

[drives]

Did they do the inverter recall on it? I believe the ecu was reprogrammed to put less stress on it.

[unclepoo]

If it`s any help, a used inverter on eBay will cost about £300   

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-PRIUS-HYBRID-PLUS-1-8-PETROL-2011-2015-CONVERTER-INVERTER-G9200-47162-/112065859017?hash=item1a17a54dc9:g:x3gAAOSw5HJXKgej

[Heidfirst]

4 hours ago, BhxTrev said:

It does seem a lot of money for replacing the inveter

fyi it costs ~£600+ to replace the inverter on a Honda eu10i leisure generator (when you can buy a whole new one with a 3 year warranty for ~£750) so £1000 to replace an inverter on a Prius seems relatively cheap to me .

[Duffryn]

11 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

fyi it costs ~£600+ to replace the inverter on a Honda eu10i leisure generator (when you can buy a whole new one with a 3 year warranty for ~£750) so £1000 to replace an inverter on a Prius seems relatively cheap to me .

The OP said "cost approx £1500".

[johalareewi]

Inverter failure on early gen3 prii is not unknown. Both myself and Grumpy Cabbie had the problem.  Mine was covered by extended warranty (otherwise £2000 to fix). GC got a deal from Toyota UK because he was a regular customer (I think they split the cost 50/50).  The UK inverter recall was to put less stress on the inverter but didn't fix any potential life shortening damage already done.

Both mine and GCs prii were high mileage cars and had done 100,000+ miles but 40,000 is nothing.

If the car has had regular servicing from MrT it will have the hybrid health check cover.  Thought that gave some cover to the hybrid parts?

 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

5 minutes ago, johalareewi said:

Inverter failure on early gen3 prii is not unknown. Both myself and Grumpy Cabbie had the problem.  Mine was covered by extended warranty (otherwise £2000 to fix). GC got a deal from Toyota UK because he was a regular customer (I think they split the cost 50/50).  The UK inverter recall was to put less stress on the inverter but didn't fix any potential life shortening damage already done.

If the car has had regular servicing from MrT it will have the hybrid health check cover.  Thought that gave some cover to the hybrid parts?

 

Just the hybrid Battery is covered by the extended warranty. Should get a written report on how well the hybrid system is operating and potential issues - https://www.toyota.co.uk/caring-for-your-toyota/service-and-maintenance/hybrid-health-check.json

[markymark33]

Update: Toyota UK has said :No way/no contribution/bad luck/out of warranty. Father in-law agreed to fix yesterday pm (without me knowing,even though I was acting as point of contact with the dealership and Toyota UK). Will have car returned to him later on today. Cost £1440 with a discount given by the dealer on labour and diagnostics charges. Service advisor says price would have been around £1700+ and that his manager was not particularly happy that any discount was given at all. The parts/labour are covered by just a 1 year warranty, so I guess it could happen again in 15 months? He will offer my father-in-law an extended warranty and they are doing a special offer at present: 2 years for the price of 1 for just over £500 (he was not sure of the exact quote but will be with the paperwork with the car on return)

Pretty upset. I have dealt with this as I am the designated "car guy" in the family (most families have them!). Although my father-in-law was not pressured in to agreeing to anything as far as I can prove, I know he did feel pressure to get his car back in working order,(it was with the dealership for 6 days waiting for a decision) mostly because his wife has multiple medical issues and she was due a hospital appointment tomorrow anyway (One of us would have taken them both if the car had not been ready,anyway). To add to this "sob" story they are celebrating their 50th Wedding Anniversary day after tomorrow as well. What a lovely gift from Toyota! The above price did not include the service which is due in Feb/March or 4 weeks time!

I have informed Toyota UK that I will be making a written complaint in any case as I feel it would be wise for prospective owners and present owners to know of  potential design fault, which is apparently covered by a formal recall in America but for which UK Prius owners just have to pay up for (unless we have already paid for the Extended Warranty).

This highlights a definite downside to ownership. With a "normal car" we could have just taken it to a friendly,local and very knowledgable mechanic but due to the complexity of the hybrid system (and this fault is not covered by the Hybrid Health Check according the the Service advisor) you really only have the option to take it to a main Toyota dealership and pay their parts and labour charges.

MM

[kithmo]

21 hours ago, unclepoo said:

If it`s any help, a used inverter on ebay will cost about £300   

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-PRIUS-HYBRID-PLUS-1-8-PETROL-2011-2015-CONVERTER-INVERTER-G9200-47162-/112065859017?hash=item1a17a54dc9:g:x3gAAOSw5HJXKgej

That link is an inverter for the Prius+ (Plus), which has a Li-ion Battery so will be different.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Shame.

However the car is almost four years outside its new car warranty, and in fact very few manufacturers will entertain assistance with a car approaching 7 years old, despite circumstances.

If your father-in-law does take out the Toyota extended warranty (which also includes Roadside Assistance for the duration of the warranty), he will have to continue having the car serviced by a Toyota dealer during the extended warranty. Your father-in-law could take the cheaper extended warranty option for low users. See the following for extended warranty options and terms and conditions - https://www.toyota.co.uk/caring-for-your-toyota/warranty/extended-warranty.json

As the vehicle is over five years old, your father-in-law could reduce his service costs by opting for Toyota's Essential Care scheme - see https://www.toyota.co.uk/caring-for-your-toyota/service-and-maintenance/car-servicing.json

[johalareewi]

If your Prius has had the ECU recall mod to protect the inverter, the new one should be OK.  Being a March 2010 prius, the warranty expired March 2013 so you have saved on (almost) 4 years of extended warranty cover which would probably have cost about the same as the new inverter.

 

[markymark33]

Must thank you for your advice and comforting words.(esp.FB and JA & Duffryn!) Final bill (now the actual paperwork has been seen) was £1447 for the inverter fix and he has been offered a 2 year extended warranty at £526.

I think am still going to write a complaint letter, if only to tell them of a very disappointing experience,especially from Toyota UK, who have a "computer says "No" type attitude.

I never mentioned to them, the health issues or wedding anniversary as, at the end of the day it is irrelevant, but may mention it in the letter as problems like this affect real people and real lives. The very most we could have hoped for was a "contribution" towards repairs but not even this was forthcoming. As long as they get their money or don't seem to lose any money, then they are happy I guess.It doesn't seem to matter if it was fully Toyota serviced and of low mileage.

The service advisor has never heard or did not know anything about a recall for the ECU mod to protect the inverter, when I asked him directly yesterday over the phone, so how could we find out if our car was under the recall or had it done? I also queried with him that he told me the fix would cost around £1400-£1500 but he would take off labour and diagnostics charges but when my father-in-law got the bill it was still £1447! He now says this was the price after those charges were reduced/removed.

While the car was in with them it had work done under a recall for something to do with the airbag and petrol tank (not sure about the latter,my father-in-law has the letter). My FIL actually went to drop the car off a few weeks ago to have this done,(before the inverter issue appeared) at an agreed date and time, only for them to tell him on arrival- that the parts had not arrived! That was an hours round trip! (30 mins there and back). And on the day they collected the car from him last week, to now sort the Hybrid fault and sort the recall stuff, they called him on the day,to say they could not make it, as they had "too many other jobs on". Even though the pick up was arranged 2 weeks previously. They did manage to come the next day though. So not the best service experience!

Any advice on how to find out for sure if the inverter is a recall item in the USA. It appears to be from what I have read doing a google search. As the Pruis ages this may be a nice little cash cow for Toyota if they have a habit of failing,whether it be after only 40,000 miles or 100,000 miles, and they refuse to cover it. I know an extended warranty is an option but at the rates offered you are already paying for it and then some.

Thanks,

MM

[Duffryn]

Try Toyota Recall Checker - enter car details and it should inform you of any outstanding recall items. I have had the charcoal filter (to do with the fuel supply) replaced recently.

You may well receive a follow-up letter (from a third party acting on behalf of Toyota) asking for your comments on your 'recent experiences' with the dealer. Don't hold back! Sympathise with you and FIL - I would be very upset too by shoddy response from Toyota - but that's life today it would seem.

 

[drives]

there is a recall checker online abeit it is a bit simple and just tells you if there is one outstanding or not- its a pretty well publicised recall so how they don't know about it I have no idea. Theres also mytoyota which has all service history and presumably records of any recall work.

I made sure it had been done when I bought my gen 3 second hand and it was all recorded on there, plus an invoice in the service history

Cant see how this could have been missed if its been owned since new and ftsh but if it has been I would have thought this is a stonebonker for you to claim some money back, if they have messed up somehow.

 

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The standard cost for the Toyota extended warranty is competitive with other vehicles manufacturers in the UK, and currently represents good value with the 2 years for the price of 1 offer that has been running since 2016 - don't know how much longer it will be available. Also as I said previously, Toyota Roadside Assistance (breakdown cover) is also included for the duration of the extended warranty - which itself costs around £71 per annum).

Some manufacturers don't offer extended warranties - Hyundai don't for example - and third party warranties tend to have more limitations.

The Toyota recall checker will highlight whether one's vehicle is subject to either official DVSA recalls or voluntary customer service campaigns - https://www.toyota.co.uk/caring-for-your-toyota/owners/recall-checker.json  This will inform the owner whether the vehicle has any outstanding recalls, but won't necessarily state what the recalls are for.

One can also use the DVSA site to check what official recalls a vehicle has had - https://www.gov.uk/check-if-a-vehicle-has-been-recalled  Bear in mind that DVSA recalls are regarding safety issues, and some issues either won't be classified as affecting vehicle safety, or there has been too few complaints of an issue to justify DVSA investigating the issue with the manufacturer.

The airbag recall for the Prius could well be to do with the airbag manufacturer Takata - where upwards of 15 vehicle manufacturers have been involved in recalls for incorrect airbag assembly, and the number of recalls globally involves around 11 million vehicles. The issue is with the airbag manufacturer, rather than the vehicle manufacturers.

The other recall is for the fuel evaporative emission control unit (otherwise known as a canister).

There was a DVSA recall that began in March 2014 which involved the invertor - see http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=628CFC9DFDDC2EAC80257C7E003B1EF7&freeText=Blank&tx=  If your father-in-law's vehicle was affected he should have had a letter from Toyota using details supplied by DVLA, informing him of the recall.

However, contact details are only as good as those that the DVLA hold, and if owners don't inform DVLA of things like change in address, etc, owners may sometimes not receive notification. Also there are instances where owners don't respond to recalls - and if this results in component failure, not sure where the owner would stand as regards getting repairs done at no cost to them, as not responding to the recall notification could be a contributory factor in the subsequent failure.

With the US recall system, the checker requires the VIN to be input into the website to check whether a vehicle is affected by a recall. There doesn't seem to be any other way to accurately check whether a recall for a certain issue has been raised.

 

[markymark33]

Ok.Thanks once again. Have checked the recall website and it says my FIL's car is "not affected by any voluntary customer service campaigns or outstanding safety recalls and no further action is required". How do we know if the relevant software update for the inverter was actually done though? Would my FIL have some sort of invoice to say the software update was done, or is it somebody just ticking a box on a computer screen at the dealership? I guess I am over thinking things now! Will go and have a rest.

Reminds me of a time we took our Honda for its MOT/service, its last one as part of a 5 year package,and its last one before we were going to change to a different car.It was raining very heavily when we dropped the car off and I noticed the windscreen wipers were smearing and one of the Wiper Blades was partially torn on its end. An instant MOT fail. We were expecting a call after we dropped it off to be told we would need replacement Wiper Blades,but we did not hear back from them and on collecting the car,we were handed the key and told everything was "a-ok"(not even an advisory note to say we needed new wipers asap!). The windscreen wipers were still smearing badly.We bought some and replaced them later that afternoon, but it made you wonder what if anything some garages do!

If my previous post has been repeated above I apologise,I may have pressed the wrong button. If not,ignore this last sentence!

MM

[drives]

register on mytoyota if you/he hasn't already and have a look at the record of service history online. And yes they provide an invoice as well for recall work

 

 

 

[markymark33]

Registered on mytoyota. Car completely up to date and had the AGG09 (inverter protection) ecu recall work done 27.3.2014. I think this recall was announced on 10.3.14 so had it done soon after announcement as it coincided with the routine annual service anyway.Car had done 27,013 miles at that stage. Car has only done 39,971 miles at time of inverter replacement a few days ago.

They celebrated their 50th Wedding Anniversary yesterday. FIL happy to have his car back anyway and he says it is driving fine.

Thanks for all the help. Will write the letter to Toyota UK.