Baffled by non starting avensis T22

[euphoria]

Hello all,

Really hope you can help me, i am new to this forum as my toyota has been fautless...until now!

The car:

• 2001 Avensis 1.8 petrol DOHC (chain) VVT-i estate
• 1ZZ engine
• serviced and been with out fault
• yes, it consumes oil as - always has done
• bought off my neighbour who had it form new.
• 130K miles
• never had any imboiliser issuse and doesn't have the alarm unit
• new clutch 30k miles ago

the problem:

• filled up the car and checked oil and set off on a motorway journey (night time).
• might be in my head but the car felt a litte under powered
• eight miles later the car lost power (no noises or signs) on the motorway and i had to pull over.
• would not restart.
• got it to restart but had to keep foot down on accelerator.
• really lumpy and was running badly at lower thta idle speed.
• got towed home - engine continued as above for the journey home (sixty minutes).
• might be ared hearing but when at lights as being towed - engine stopped.

so far:

i have checked everything i can thing of, due to the age / value i can't justify a garage and after speaking to a few they have no idea either.

it's a great car and suits the fmailt yreally well.

turn the key and everything lights up etc, no OBD codes, engine cranks but wont catch.

• got spark on all plugs
• fitted new plugs
• thottle vale opens with accelerator
• crank / inlet cam / outlet cam all match up
• disconected fuel pipe from the filter/fuel rail and saw a little foutain of fuel.
• tried easy start into the throttle body
• compression on all four cylinders is good, to spec and with in tollerance of each other
• new Bosch batterysome nine months ago
• tried to bump start but no good
• checked earths and resistance checks of crank, cam, MAF, fuel pump all to spec
• VSV valve works
• pin outs from ecu to coils are all good
• all fuses and relays appear to be ok
• the two/three air pipes are all ok.

i have been trying to resove this for a while.....i really want to fix her as i don't want to do alternative.

 

 Please can anyone suggest anything, i have searched this forum but not found anything?

 

many thanks in advance

 

[Alan1234]

Hi I've just read your post , and you really are stuck , it's hard diagnosing faults not being stood with you . But if you've started getting issues after filling up then it points to a fuel issue maybe the fuel was contaminated so a separate clean fuel supply will rectify your issue . It can also be a breather issue from the tank , try undoing the fuel cap (M3 bmw's use to crush their fuel tanks losing all power) . If non of these work then I would check fuel filter and pump as the pressure at the rail should be pretty high and check your fuel pressure regulator on the rail is giving you the correct readings .Well that's all I can think of that may help you Without being there good luck keep us informed .  

[Alan1234]

I've been looking at info online and I'm thinking its a fuel pressure issue more likely low pressure , fuel regulator fault or pump . 

[euphoria]

Hi Alan1234,

Thaks for taking the time to repsond, i will check the fuel breather as you suggested - the next window i have is Friday afternoon.

just thinking on your suggestion about the fuel etc, when i used easystart i would have thought the engine would of caught at least a little bit?

Happy to check the fuel presure, would someting like the Draper fuel pump gauge be sufficient?

i beleive i am looking for a value of 44-50 psi this should prime and idle pressure.

as for the fuel regulator i think this is the mechanical (not electric) valve in th emiddle of the underisde of the  fuel rail, is this right?

i have gaven it a few taps while cranking already - no use.

 

Really appreciate youy help, cheers

 

 

 

[Konrad C]

I would look at the fuel pump!

A few years back, 2010 I believe, a friend had a fuel pump problem with his car. He went to a mechanic (not sure what the outcome was) then he asked me in the office! I went and did a couple of checks and said the fuel pump in the tank has failed. The reason was that it did not prime on first turn of the key. He bought a new pump and I changed it. Started on first turn if the key. That was a Land Rover Freelander and the pump was expensive at the time (probably why I was asked to sort the car).

On my old Mk1 Avensis, if you turned the key first time after being off for hours, you will hear the fuel pump prime the fuel system just before starting. 

[Alan1234]

Hi just read your post . Right we need to check a few things just to be clear . I want you to refit the injectors and remove the fuel pump fuse then I want you to whip out your plugs and make sure they are dry and clean . Then I want you you squirt some fresh fuel down each plug hole or pour a bit out of s spray can lid 20-30ml or so pop your plugs in and spin it over . It should now fire up and run for a few seconds or so this with elimate spark timing/ issues . The reason Im asking you to do this is easy start should have fired up your engine unless it's a over fueling  bad / fuel  issue flooding your engine .now with the fuel pump switched off via no fuse and it still refuses to start your looking at a ignition fault if you have spark it takes you down the timings out either cambelt has jumped or sensor ecu fault . P.s you can spray fuel into the air intake if you have a spray bottle while someone spin's the engine over rather than pour fuel down the plug holes but it creates a fire risk from stray sparks . but you still need to make sure your plugs are clean and dry before doing this .

Im still thinking fuel issue as it started after you fueled  up . can I ask a daft question you didn't put some diesel in by mistake and you now have a petrol diesel mix in your tank. As it would have taken a mile or so to get to the injectors I've known the garages to fill the wrong tanks with the wrong fuel ? Sorry to ask . 

[Konrad C]

Like Alan I think you may have contaminated fuel or misfuelled. If there is a way to check the fuel to confirm this. So you covered all fuses and relays. The EML lights when the ignition is turned on? Basically everything has been checked. Far off guess in the catalytic convertor has collapsed. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Konrad C
spelling

[Alan1234]

This topic has really got me hooked on what's wrong with your car . It reminds of my wife telling me about her friends new car how lovely it is to ride in the stereo sounds awesome the leather seats feel and smell so nice etc etc and she gets me hooked and then I ask that question I know I shouldn't but I'm hooked I can't stop myself im so eager to know what they have bought and she looks at me all vacant and says it's a blue one . I just sink back into my seat muttering lol as she walks away . And this story is were we are with your post it started off and has got my attention so bad but we are now waiting on you to say it's the wrong fuel or contaminated accidentally but you proberly don't know lol .

[euphoria]

Hi Alan1234 & Konrad C,

Appreciate your comments, fuel wise - i can hear the pump prime as you suggest and when the fuel line is disconnected from the fuel filter, fuel fountains out (approx. 5 inch).

I had thought that as unlikely (the cars i have access to are are unleaded) as it might be - maybe i mis-fuelled.

a smell of the tank and check (evaporation rate, feel and smell) of the fuel from "fountain" described above makes me think it is not a mis fuel issue.

i also checked the petrol station i use last night (while getting a jerry can of fuel to trial your suggestions above) - the diesel nozzle is a bigger diameter and would not fit into my avensis unleaded filler.

The EML bulb does illuminate at start so the bulb has not broken.

i had the same though as you Alan1234, timing issue but i have verified that the with the crank at TDC mark the inlet and outlet camshaft timing marks line up. It is also a chain not a belt and looked all ok.

Konrad C, i am interested in your suggestion about  the catalytic convertor may have collapsed, any suggestions apart from visual how to check this? it it helps this link show my exhaust setup: manifold and middle and rear.

Just to clarify, i did not remove my fuel rail / fuel regulator - the picture above is one from the web.

due the coil length i have purchased four of these: SILVERLINE and a Draper fuel pump gauge ready for Friday afternoon tinkering.

 the new plugs i fitted were the same four prong ground as previously fitted that worked iwth no issue: Bosch

 

Many thanks for your time!

 

 

[euphoria]

Fuel pressure is good 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by euphoria
image rotated

[Konrad C]

On 2/16/2017 at 0:59 PM, euphoria said:

Hi Alan1234 & Konrad C,

Appreciate your comments, fuel wise - i can hear the pump prime as you suggest and when the fuel line is disconnected from the fuel filter, fuel fountains out (approx. 5 inch).

I had thought that as unlikely (the cars i have access to are are unleaded) as it might be - maybe i mis-fuelled.

a smell of the tank and check (evaporation rate, feel and smell) of the fuel from "fountain" described above makes me think it is not a mis fuel issue.

i also checked the petrol station i use last night (while getting a jerry can of fuel to trial your suggestions above) - the diesel nozzle is a bigger diameter and would not fit into my avensis unleaded filler.

The EML bulb does illuminate at start so the bulb has not broken.

i had the same though as you Alan1234, timing issue but i have verified that the with the crank at TDC mark the inlet and outlet camshaft timing marks line up. It is also a chain not a belt and looked all ok.

Konrad C, i am interested in your suggestion about  the catalytic convertor may have collapsed, any suggestions apart from visual how to check this? it it helps this link show my exhaust setup: manifold and middle and rear.

Just to clarify, i did not remove my fuel rail / fuel regulator - the picture above is one from the web.

due the coil length i have purchased four of these: SILVERLINE and a Draper fuel pump gauge ready for Friday afternoon tinkering.

 the new plugs i fitted were the same four prong ground as previously fitted that worked iwth no issue: BOSCH

 

Many thanks for your time!

 

 

Hi euphoria, the manifold converter (maniverter) may blocked with carbon. To check, remove each of the O2 sensors and use an endoscope or a phone camera with the LED close to the lens to see inside. Also remove the down stream O2 sensor and check that too. The difficulty here is how seized everything is. I changed the exhaust of my old  '98 lean burn (different layout) and I had to removed it whole exhaust by unbolting the from pipe to the manifold, and dropped the complete system. The bolts holding the middle to the tail were too corroded. After 15 or more years, things will need a lot of anti-seize spray to undo the O2 sensors. 

I thought of the collapsed maniverter or blockage, because the back pressure may have stopped the engine. 

[Alan1234]

Ive studied your original fault and all the checks you have done and the route your now on regarding a melted blocked cat . I think your orignal fault was a possible misfire . Which can intern melt the cat with the driver trying to keep the engine running ie a incomplete burn pumping Unburnt fuel into the cat for a hour may cause it to overheat and melt . I recommend you replace your plug leads , distributed cap and rotor arm the car should now start and run even if the cat is semi melted burnt it may not want to rev due to excessive back pressure . It's the only thing that makes sense . Now before you say the spark is fine a lead or cap trying to jump a gap in a compression filled cylinder needs puts a hell of a lot more power to jump that gap in open air causing electrical tracking and break down . 

[euphoria]

16 hours ago, Alan1234 said:

 

Hi Alan1234,

The spark plugs are powered by coil over plug packs. One per plug. How ever, your suggestion made me think,  to ensure timing is still all ok and to eliminate the thought that the ecu is messing up the timing. I should be able to use a timing light right? Just need to find a mate in Bristol with one as they seems expensive these days. 

Hi Konrad C,

Would removing the two manifold O2 sensors allow enough exhaust fumes to exit to mitigate a blocked catalytic converter?

Many thanks. Really appreciate your suggestions. 

 

Cheers

[Konrad C]

Euphoria, interesting question. I would say yes with a big caution! It is a bit enclosed and the exhaust at that point is almost like a flame thrower. Anything that is will melt or catch fire needs to be shielded. After that if the car starts and runs, then you have found your problem. Some people have gently tapped the cat, and the sound told them if it was in one piece, or broken. I am not experienced on this procedure. I would use one of those snake scope inspection cameras to look inside the exhaust, through the O2 sensor holes. The sensors are located close to the cats. The reach for these inspection cameras are around 1 metre - more than long enough.  

[Alan1234]

You should be able to loosen of the exhaust manifold and pull it away a few millimetres that will allow the engine to start and Rev . This how we use to test them years ago for a blocked cat . You only need to run it for a few minutes . It will save you trying to undo an 02 sensor that just loves not to want to come out . It's so hard to diagnose without being there but keep going your get there in the end . 

[euphoria]

Thanks for your replies - will try to seperate the exhaust manifold from the block and crank it over - fingers crossed!

any thoughts on using a timing light with the engine just cranking?

 

thanks

[euphoria]

found this thread:

 

[Alan1234]

Hi I see you have found a post on another section hoping to find your solution . I think you should stick to your line of diagnosis with the manifold loosing away from head to check for blocked exhaust   . I think the guy in that other thread had compression issues and yours are all correct . 

[euphoria]

still not had time to crack the exhaust manifold of the block yet...will keep you posted!

 

thanks

[euphoria]

tried to split the manifold off the block - but no joy.

The bolts came off the heat shield but the O2 sensors need to be removed to get the heat shield off.....

 

thanks

[euphoria]

MOV_2616.mp4

 

O2 sensors out and.......

 

 

[Alan1234]

Now that sounds like a running engine 👍

[euphoria]

 

Hopefully the cat section won't be too hard to come off and will refit the O2 sensors and hopefully it will still fire. Proving the cat is blocked. Will keep you posted. 

Looks quite involved and expensive to change the starter motor, any advice?

[euphoria]

So, after some more time spent on the car i managed to replace the cat section of my exhaust.

after trying to blow through the cat section i can confirm it was blocked. So good call Konrad C!

i also fitted a new Bosch starter motor as the original one was failing.

with a turn of the key it started with no problems.

went for a drive as it was a bit smoky along the motorway to clear it as she had been laid up for a while........still smoking.

so, fixed one problem and on to the next, oil is being burnt somewhere. valve stem seals?

the coolant does not look contaminated with oil and is not going down etc

the smoke is a blueish and the oil is going down - it's like i have an aeroplane vapor trail!

welcome to suggestions / help as i have invested a lot already and it feels as though she is almost there....

 

 

thanks

 

[euphoria]

i poped out the new plugs after the motorway run, they are all a  little oily.

i also check the compression on cyliner four and it was fine.

on a side note the lambda sensors (left and right) pre cat / exhaust manifold flashed up with a P0135 & P0155.

i check the resistance between the B+ and HT wire (both Black wires not the blue or white) and there was no restiance (expecting approx 16 ohms) so i know they will need replacing but don't want to Shell out for them yet if i cant fix the oil issue.