BP Ultimate in the Aygo Tank

[Agent Orange]

At the moment, BP are running an advertising campaign on British TV for BP Ultimate petrol and I know that all the "Big Brand" companies make some kind of super-clean-whizzy-go-juice, Esso Synergy Plus, Shell Optimax, etc.  This is usually 97 octane as against the more normal 95 and seems to have some kind of engine cleaning magic built in....It could be Cyllit Bang, for all I know!

Anyway, with the Aygo being a three cylinder and falling into the zero tax band for emissions (If you owned it before this month), my question is this. Quite simply is it worth it?

BP is the most expensive fuel around here (9p/litre more than Sainsbury's) to begin with for the normal 95 octane unleaded and you can add 3p/litre, on top of that, for the Ultimate.  So does anybody use any of these premium fuels and does it help or hinder?  I'm not sure if a "bigger bang" with 97 octane is that good in the long term for a 1000cc three pot and if it raises emmissions from 99 to 101, I go up a tax bracket.

I haven't a clue if I'm right with any of my assumptions but I would like to ensure that my Aygo lasts as long as possible and stays in the best of health....I don't need it to go faster or sound throatier!  I use the best oil/fluids that I can find and I would be interested to find out your thoughts on these "wonder fuels".

Many thanks in advance for any advice. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Where I live (Birmingham), BP is 4.2ppl, Shell is 3.2ppl and Tesco 0.2ppl more expensive than Asda (currently the cheapest at 114.7ppl).

I tend to use BP in both cars as the filling station is opposite Tesco and closer than Shell. Will use BP Ultimate if doing a run as the cars seem more responsive. We're going up to Skye at the weekend so will use BP Ultimate in the i20, as we'll be covering approx 520 miles (300 of which will be motorway).

On the odd occasion I use supermarket fuel, I use Tesco Momentum super unleaded for the better additive package.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Shell are launching their latest version of V-power this week - 27th April.

[Agent Orange]

Many thanks for the reply, Frostyballs. Up here in NE Lancs, the cheapest filling station is Sainsbury's (113.7ppl) with Asda usually a fraction higher.  The Only local BP station has unleaded at 122.9 ppl and 125.9 ppl for the Ultimate......Wierdly, if I drive about 5 miles into Yorkshire (Skipton or Crosshills) I can get BP unleaded at 118.7 ppl.  I normally do that to be honest as we are closer to Yorkshire towns than Lancashire ones, so the Aygo generally runs on branded (BP) 95 octane unleaded.

It is interesting that you say that your Hyundai is more responsive on the ultimate but I'm not too bothered about more power, just looking after the engine and keeping it in tip-top condition.  I have to admit that I didn't realise that Tesco did a premium fuel as I don't think that I've ever filled up there.

Have a great weekend in Skye, by the way....Drive safely!

 

Edit: Thanks again for the second reply, I will look up the specs on the new Shell V-Power. 

[Mark_P]

Found this on the HongKong version of Shell website.

It's called Dynaflex Technology

http://www.shell.com.hk/en_hk/motorists/shell-fuels/shell-dynaflex-technology.html

Mark

[mickburkesnr]

It's been a long while since I tried my 107 on the BP stuff. I found it lasted a little longer than other brands. Normally though I will put Shell in it if I go past the cheapest Shell garage in Stourbridge, otherwise it either gets a tank of Sainsbury's stuff in it or Esso. 

The worst I've found has been Asda's petrol. Doesn't last as long as the other petrol in my experience.

When I have a choice I will go for Shell, in both the Corolla and the 107, followed by Sainsbury's. 

[Agent Orange]

Thanks for the replies and @Mark_P That page makes interesting reading, even for a non-scientist like me...Well found.

It's funny that three of you mention Shell and that's the only brand that I can't get easily around here.  There is one Shell station within a 20 mile radius of where I live and so, I have never filled up with it.

I would still love to hear from anybody that regularly uses the premium, 97 octane stuff and has any feelings on whether it is better or actually hurts the engine, long term.  My worry is that bigger bang produced by it and whether the little three pot can handle it/burn it correctly.  I may be being daft here but my thoughts are that the engine is not a performance one and is designed for 95 octane...Does that extra 2 octane help, run better and burn or does it actually increase emissions by running too rich and dumping it down the exhaust?

Many thanks again for your advice. 

[Justhandguns]

2 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Does that extra 2 octane help, run better and burn or does it actually increase emissions by running too rich and dumping it down the exhaust?

Many thanks again for your advice. 

 

According to many scientific reports, there is absolutely no advantage for using 98 Ron in our little engines. It was even suggested that using high octane fuel in low compression ratio engine can get overheated in extreme cases. I use the premium fuel from time to time not because I want the extra performance, but the extra additives in the premium fuel to clean my engine up. A lot of people say that their cars run smoother is probably not because of higher RON, but because of the extra lubricants and detergents.

[MarkyPancake]

A lot of people say that their cars run smoother is probably not because of higher RON, but because of the extra lubricants and detergents.

 

Or just the placebo effect.

[Plob]

 Can't remember if it was Top Gear or Fifth Gear, (or both) that have done reports involving objective testing!

The general consensus would seem to be that to get the most benefit from better fuel you need to start with a car that uses more in the first place!

They also looked at mods, filters, exhausts, additives etc, and said some are better than others, (though rarely as effective as advertised), but the most important thing to consider is that any gain will be as a percentage of original power output...

They went on to suggest that anyone considering such expenditure should weigh up whether it might be cheaper to just buy a more powerful car instead?!

[mickburkesnr]

2 hours ago, Plob said:

Can't remember if it was Top Gear or Fifth Gear, (or both) that have done reports involving objective testing!

That was Fifth Gear. It's been a long, long time since Top Gear did anything of use for the normal driver.

[Wiz201]

It depends how long the fuel light has been on, sometimes I go for supermarket petrol or Shell, it makes little difference. I think BP is too expensive and not worth it.

[Mark_P]

I've never had any problems using Shell Nitro+ Premium in my 1.0 iQ. I try to use it all the time except when I'm skint and I fall back to Shell unleaded.  

I always find the higher rated fuel does help and it was all I used until earlier this year since I purchased my iQ and it helped me beat Toyota's 500 miles in an iQ from a full tank. With the standard fuel, I've not come close to 520 miles on a full tank (blame it on the weather and time of year)since I've started to use standard fuel.

I do also have to say that I also use and have used Redex, Millers Petrol Power Ecomax and Archoil AR6200-EU (which is my fave additive - I only buy the 20ml sample pack twice a year to give me a boost)

Edited April 26, 2017 by Mark_P
changing stuff and adding other bits

[Agent Orange]

Thanks to all for the replies and advice.....A great mixed bag of answers, which just shows how different we all are.

The info from Justhandguns, sort of, backed up my worries and I totally agree with MarkyPancake, that is that if you think something is better, then it must be.....even if it's not.

Plob is right as well, if you want more power, get a bigger car but as I said, I wasn't after more power, just extra life and protection for the engine and I totally agree with Isobel (Wiz201) that BP is way too expensive, even though I use it when I can fill up in Yorkshire.....You're a Yorkshire Lass, Isobel but I bet you're not from the Skipton area, as there isn't a Shell Garage for miles around!! 

Mark_P seems to be the only one to have used these premium fuels regularly and seems to have had good results, Thanks Mark.

Do you know what?  After all your help and advice, I think that I'll stay with the standard 95 octane unleaded, for now.  I will give the premium a go if I have a long run to do, we may be off to Scotland next month, so that would be the ideal time and a comparison with the Hyundai that Frostyballs is doing (More or less, Fort William for us) the same trip in, might be interesting.

Thanks again for all your replies, Folks, they are much appreciated. 

[Wiz201]

On 26/04/2017 at 7:09 PM, Agent Orange said:

Plob is right as well, if you want more power, get a bigger car but as I said, I wasn't after more power, just extra life and protection for the engine and I totally agree with Isobel (Wiz201) that BP is way too expensive, even though I use it when I can fill up in Yorkshire.....You're a Yorkshire Lass, Isobel but I bet you're not from the Skipton area, as there isn't a Shell Garage for miles around!! 

I live in Huddersfield and commute to Shipley across Bradford so I come across about three Shell garages.

[Agent Orange]

@Wiz201

Crikey, Isobel! Huddersfield/Shipley/Bradford and back on a daily basis and you are still returning 51.7 mpg on your "Fuelly" app?  You must have a touch on the pedals as light as a Ballerina, that is brilliant!  The last time we went to Ikea, I ended up driving through Bradford and the road system is, well, shall we just say, a tad busy and more than a bit bonkers. 

I don't know why but Petrol prices drop as soon as you cross the Lancashire/Yorkshire border, you seem to pay 2 - 4 pence per litre less than we do...All the more reason for living in God's little acre, eh?

Watch out for men on Bikes this weekend, Isobel...The Tour de Yorkshire is coming close!

All the best.

[Wiz201]

11 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

@Wiz201

Crikey, Isobel! Huddersfield/Shipley/Bradford and back on a daily basis and you are still returning 51.7 mpg on your "Fuelly" app?  You must have a touch on the pedals as light as a Ballerina, that is brilliant!  The last time we went to Ikea, I ended up driving through Bradford and the road system is, well, shall we just say, a tad busy and more than a bit bonkers. 

I don't know why but Petrol prices drop as soon as you cross the Lancashire/Yorkshire border, you seem to pay 2 - 4 pence per litre less than we do...All the more reason for living in God's little acre, eh?

Watch out for men on Bikes this weekend, Isobel...The Tour de Yorkshire is coming close!

All the best.

Actually that's not up to date but so far in my new X play the average mpg is 50 at the moment so its not far off. I travel early in the morning and go home early mid afternoon apart from the odd late night cover like last night it ended up taking me an hour and a quarter to get home. I don't work weekends so will be watching Tour de Yorkshire.

[Ancient Nerd]

My preferred fuels are (in order) and always subject to variation due to price:

1. Shell Fuelsave. I won't use any other basic unleaded,  but this has AFAIK a decent additive load, including detergent.  Unfortunately,  it is mostly not available here in deepest Norfolk.
2. Tesco Momentum. This is only 5p more expensive than their basic unleaded. It is advertised as having a decent detergent load, and much as I don't trust Tesco, I do believe this, because of the trouble they would be in if untrue. The increased octane rating is irrelevant, and if anything would reduce fuel efficiency due to the reduced volatility of the higher octane rating.
3. Shell V-Power. Probably the best additive load, but silly expensive. Only if I use an unknown Shell station that turns out not to have Fuelsave.

Two of us have had no problems following this with various Prius and Auris hybrids over more than 400,000 miles since 2007. One Prius did 180,000 miles by the time it was pxed, and another 135,000.

[mickburkesnr]

On 28/04/2017 at 10:03 AM, Ancient Nerd said:

and much as I don't trust Tesco, I do believe this, because of the trouble they would be in if untrue.

Yeah but don't forget they didn't mind their accountant being "creative" with their pre/post tax profits for a few years ;)

[Planemo]

The short answer is that running anything more than 95 in the Aygo engine is a waste of money. I would however add the caveat that I do not like supermarket fuels. They are not of the same quality in terms of additives and further, in my experience mpg suffers.

I am not sure where someone would get the idea that 97 or higher will 'create damage'. A higher RON does not mean it is more 'explosive', it just means that it has a higher resistance to detonating/pre-ignition within the combustion chamber.

Some cars, such as Mitsubishi Evo/Impreza WRX Sti etc run very aggressive igntion maps, and running 95 in these cars will almost certainly lead to detonation. 97 (or higher) prevents this, and I would never reccomend running anything else in cars like this, or on any 'sports' turbocharged engines (which are more prone to detonation by default).

Our Aygos are conservatively mapped - they have to be - the engine will be used in all countries in all conditions for many thousands of miles. Using a higher RON fuel will not make any difference to detonation as they should not be detting even on 95. Using 97 or 98 or even 102 will not harm them in the slightest, but you are simply wasting money on a fuel with no benefit.

Some engines will see some benefits that are NOT highly tuned turbocharged sports cars. Older BMW M3's for instance (the straight 6 non-turbos) were mapped fairly conservatively but relied more on the det (knock) sensors to control igntion than they should have done. Using the sensors to primarily control igntion (rather than the map) pushed the ignition so hard that often the engine would run at just before/on the point of det which will *usually* give close to maximum power potential. Most engines use one sensor purely as a failsafe in case things go wrong - for example should a low RON fuel be introduced to the fuel system - but M3's ran 3 sensors and they were used all the time to run as much ignition as possible, only pulling it back once the sensors noticed det (which is most of the time). It's not a good way to run an engine, but it does produce the most power and this looks good in sales brochures. The downside is that det causes massive shock loadings in the engine near to TDC and unsurprisingly BMW were flooded with complaints of knocked-out big end bearings a few years down the line. In the case of the M3, running as high an octane as possible would have possibly prevented this, and produced more power to boot. But far less people would have bought M3's if they could only be ran on high RON fuel...and BMW thought that their det sensors would protect the engine from those that didn't... It worked in a way...true, the pistons were not melting but BMW seemed to have overlooked the other issues that det causes over a prolonged period.

In our little engines, the knock sensor is not used to push ignition timing to the max - the maps are pre-written and are conservative. The knock sensor should only come into play under extreme circumstances - maybe on a really hot day in a tropical country with very poor (or low RON) fuel. I have always fancied running a mappable ECU on my Aygo, playing with the cam timing and fuel/ignition maps (and using 97+) but the cost of the hardware + dyno time (around £1.5k) has put me off up until now. I believe a worthwhile gain could be had though. Until then, I will run 95 fuel from 'proper' stations such as Shell/BP etc.

A point of note - all petrol delivered to BP/Shell etc is exactly the same - the additives/octane booster for 'premium' fuels is added on site.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Planemo]

Ooops, not sure if I properly explained/covered this quote by the OP:

"  I'm not sure if a "bigger bang" with 97 octane is that good in the long term for a 1000cc three pot and if it raises emmissions from 99 to 101, I go up a tax bracket. "

You do not get a 'bigger bang' from a higher RON fuel. All a higher RON can do is assist in preventing detonation, and this only occurs if aggressive ignition is used (which our cars do not). Emissions would remain unchanged in our cars whether we run 95, 97, 98 or 102 RON so thats not a consideration.

[Agent Orange]

Many thanks @Planemo

To be honest I didn't fully understand all the technicalities of your first post but I really appreciated them!  You have explained an awful lot that I didn't totally understand and quite a few concerns that I had so, thanks again.

It's funny that you should answer as your thread about the things that you've done to your Aygo was one of the first that I ever viewed on this forum, back in the days that I was a "Lurker".   It's a great little motor that you have there and you've done some nice camera work as well, you have done some fine work, Sir...Well done! 

Thanks again and all the best.

[FROSTYBALLS]

48 minutes ago, Planemo said:

.... all petrol delivered to BP/Shell etc is exactly the same - the additives/octane booster for 'premium' fuels is added on site

Additive packages for fuel, whether supermarket, branded or premium, are added on-site or when the fuel is in the road tanker. There have been instances in the past where the wrong amount of additives have been added and caused problems for some owners - from memory this has happened with Morrison's fuel for example. 

Most fuels nowadays contain additives, but the packages vary between retailer and standard/premium fuels. So it may not be just about responsiveness or economy, but also about keeping things like EGR valves freer from deposit build up.

For example, some IQ owners who experienced issues with the manifold/EGR are using premium fuel or third party additives (e.g. Redex) for this purpose.

At the end of the day, if one is looking for a definitive answer, there isn't one, and most views are just that - views. Basically it is owner choice - if one feels one's car runs better, for whatever reason, using premium fuels (whether all the time or occasionally) then carry on.

In my case premium fuel is around 3 pence per litre more than standard unleaded, so the extra 90 pence on a 30 litre fill isn't going to break the bank.

 

[Planemo]

" At the end of the day, if one is looking for a definitive answer, there isn't one, and most views are just that - views."

I would have to disagree - definitive answers can be obtained as to what fuel is best for an engine, the only difference is that it can vary between different makes and models of cars.

EGT, lambda, detonation, pre-ignition, power, torque and many other parameters can all be monitored and data logged on decent dynos. I have done much of this work myself in the past. I am aware of the Aygo engine, it's type and method of engine management. I have also seen time and time again, many results of supermarket fuels, in front of my own eyes, on the dyno. They were nearly always poorer than a 'branded' fuel. We used BP by default as it was consistent and gave reliable data but I am not saying that Esso or Shell are any worse/better. Supermarket fuels, at best, were never as good as something like BP. This is due to a combination of factors - additive quality or type of octane booster used (as already stated ) or even how long they have been standing in the refinery (octane drops to a noticeable extent over time).

Mrs Miggins, who does 1000 miles a year to the shops and back in her brand new mobility Matiz that she owns for 2 years max before chopping it in probably wouldn't get anything out of using branded fuel. Someone like myself who does far more miles and keeps my cars for many years will see benefits not only in MPG but also the health of the engine by using branded fuel, which in my case is nearly always BP of 95 RON.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

23 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I would have to disagree - definitive answers can be obtained as to what fuel is best for an engine, the only difference is that it can vary between different makes and models of cars.

In which case they aren't definitive .....