Check Hybrid System

[Gerg]

13 hours ago, Yahweh831 said:

They found a lot of dirt and hair in the hybrid cooling fan which could have caused the overheating and failing of the inverter.

Just as background information:- 

The cooling fan mentioned (that fills with dirt and hair) is fitted under the rear seat, on the left hand side, close to the back door.  From what I've read of other people's experience, when the Battery cools down after an overheat/error light display (this is the traction Battery fan, not the inverter), the problem goes away until the Battery gets hot again, but this won't happen if  the vent grille has been cleared.  To date, I have not heard of any lasting damage caused by this.  The repair is simple and takes a few minutes.  The fan doesn't seem to fail.  It is made in Japan.

I always understood that there is only one inverter (could there be a small secondary one next to the traction battery to keep the 12v battery charged - but I assumed that was integral to the main one under the bonnet).  That lives under the bonnet, on the r/h side when viewed from the front of the car, it's a big, flat, aluminium casting with orange cables running into it.  This has no fan.  It has an electric water pump that runs continuously when the car is in a 'ready' state.  It uses a conventional radiator at the front of the car to keep cool.  If the water pump fails (this can happen at higher mileages, say, beyond 120,000+ miles), then this can ruin the inverter as it overheats, but not always.  The pump is straightforward to replace, I believe, and is probably £250-300 for the part, perhaps someone knows for sure.  The inverter is a very expensive part, that is the part/price mentioned by the original poster.  I don't believe fitting is very difficult for this.  Dirt and hair does not have any affect on this item - there is no service requirement, apart from changing the coolant.  If I remember correctly, this is done after 10 years, I would have to look it up to be sure.

Your fault sounds like the first one, but the diagnosis sounds like the second one.  If it were me, I would want to get this clarified (a lot!) before the repair was started.  I have no recollection of anyone having the first problem causing the second, but then I'm just an owner/occasional driver.

Perhaps someone else knows more....?

[Yahweh831]

They don't say that it caused the issue, they told me that the fan was dirty (which could have possible cause the overheating of the system) and the inverter is broken and needs to be replaced.

I cannot make sure that there is another possible fix or not. This is my first car so I am not experienced in this stuff. I appreciate any advice you share here.

[Gerg]

Hi,

I've just re-read your original post, for some reason I mistakenly thought the repair had not yet started. (Too early in the morning for me!).

If I understand correctly, the car is now repaired after the inverter has been replaced.

How many miles has the car done?  How long ago was it bought from the dealer?

Does the car drive correctly now?

If you are able, it would be interesting to see a list of the parts that were used in the repair, especially the inverter and/or water pump.

[Yahweh831]

They have ordered the inverter which is arriving tomorrow. So they haven't done the job yet.

The car has done around 60,000 miles, I bought it from the dealer in Sep '17 (almost two years). I have driven roughly 15,000 miles since I bought it. 90% of the time I use it for short trips (20 miles a day).

I don't like it when I need to blindly trust a technician, but I have no choice. My assumption is that they want to punish me for not servicing it in the Toyota network. But their fees are egregious.

[FROSTYBALLS]

No manufacturer will provide goodwill where the vehicle has been serviced outside their dealer network. 

[rzvrazvan]

I have the same car as you, auris hybrid 2011 about 64200km aboard. I am the second owner, the car is only serviced in the Toyota network. In a few days I'm scheduled to revise where the Delar has announced that an Hybrid update will be made. What I do not understand is how a fan that is responsible for the passive (air only) cooling of the battery's can have a connection with the inverter! If the fan gets worse because of dirt and dust, the batteries are going to suffer because of this! The inverter is caught in another circuit and is not connected to the fan. Yes it should be inspected more often and for optimal operation, normal up to 100k should be cleaned. As for the inverter I think here we have to deal with the term "consumer market", almost all the delars wants to make as much money as possible! I know I have a car serviced only at Toyota, the delar will still try to make me pay the inverter even if I should not. To make sure the inverter does not crash , change the pump and coolant before 120k. Cheers ! Razvan RO

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[Yahweh831]

Do you guys who do all the services within the Toyota network managed to get a service plan or better prices after asking the dealer? My next service would be the 60K major one and I'd rather get it done with the local dealer.

[Gerg]

43 minutes ago, rzvrazvan said:

What I do not understand is how a fan that is responsible for the passive (air only) cooling of the battery's can have a connection with the inverter! If the fan gets worse because of dirt and dust, the batteries are going to suffer because of this! The inverter is caught in another circuit and is not connected to the fan

This is the point I was making.  This sounds as if the diagnosis has been misunderstood by the customer service personnel, and then given to you.  There is the potential for an (accidentally???) inflated bill being drawn up here unless the exact nature of the fault is clearly defined beforehand.  The fan mentioned is at the back of the car, the inverter is at the front, they are connected electrically, but, just to repeat, I've not heard of one damaging the other, so far anyway.  But, 'There's always a First time for everything' etc. etc.

I don't think that you are being punished for not having a full Toyota service history, but Toyota UK  might have offered to offset some of the bill if you had got all the services done by them, not least because this is an unusual fault and this part is not a 'wear and tear' item, but their goodwill gesture is not by any means certain at all.

If it's of any consolation, the inverter module could be said to be taking on the role of the clutch (as well as lots of other functions) in a conventional car (this is not quite correct, there is no clutch in the HSD transmission etc. etc.).  A bill of £1300 for a dealer clutch replacement for a conventional car is not unrealistic. 

Excuse the cheekiness of the suggestion; if and when the repair does go ahead, I would be pleased to collect the defective parts from you to see if anything can be learned by taking them apart and inspecting for wear or damage.  I can quite understand that you might not wish to do this and it might be impractical.

For what it's worth, under European consumer law, if a major fault develops within 6 years of original sale, it is viewed as being not fit for the purpose sold.  If your car is (just) new enough you might have some recourse there.  It is not a commonly used course of action.

[Yahweh831]

But is there any professional body or organisation in the UK where I can seek advice? I mean I can try Toyota but they will be probably push back and put the blame on me because I haven't serviced my car at Toyota - which is bull****.

[Yahweh831]

This is an interesting read about Prius inverter failures in the US and it might be related to my issue: https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-toyota-recall-20181005-story.html

[Gerg]

I think that link is directly related to your issue.  I had seen the earlier version of this report a few months ago.

As an aside, no mention of Battery cooling fans getting clogged in that article....

[Gerg]

The warranties and long-term manufacturer liabilities are so different there, even if the cars are basically the same.

The way Toyota operates their warranty in the UK is, by and large, considered to be very generous.  From my experience, it's often quite difficult to get through to the 'right' people on the phone at customer services, many of them sound like they have no real knowledge about anything technical at all, but they are very polite.  I think anyone at Toyota offering you cash support for this repair would be setting a precedent for this type of fault, so the defences would go up long before they did do that!  But what have you got to lose?

This forum is not viewed by Toyota, but two of the regular posters are staff at dealerships, just so you know!

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The forums may be viewed by Toyota - we don't know - but they certainly won't respond to any discussion on these forums.

[qettyz]

If my inverter dies, my first try would buying used inverter(there seem to be many of them at eBay for under 1000€) and install it and then take car to toyota for programming it to the car.

Those used inverters are so cheap, that seems there is no ask for those. They sit around long time and they sell them low price. 

Lowest what i have seen was 2015 rear ended auris inverter for 500€. 47k kms.

[Heidfirst]

5 hours ago, Yahweh831 said:

My assumption is that they want to punish me for not servicing it in the Toyota network. But their fees are egregious.

Tbh I doubt that they want to punish you - they will just be quoting based on parts prices & hourly rates.

Toyota dealers that operate under the fixed price servicing scheme, imo, are generally at the cheaper end of the equivalent manufacturer's rates & certainly cheaper than the likes of BMW, Mercedes etc. As your car is 5+ years old if you sign up for the scheme & your dealer operates it you would also qualify for the 5+ Club with a 20% discount on servicing & MOTs. Plus you would be getting what is now called Toyota Electric Service (used to be Hybrid Health Check) which also extends the warranty on the drive Battery.

4 hours ago, Yahweh831 said:

Do you guys who do all the services within the Toyota network managed to get a service plan or better prices after asking the dealer? My next service would be the 60K major one and I'd rather get it done with the local dealer.

I have a service plan which gives me a discount  over individual services at current prices let alone future price increases. 

[Heidfirst]

3 hours ago, Gerg said:

I think that link is directly related to your issue.  I had seen the earlier version of this report a few months ago.

As an aside, no mention of battery cooling fans getting clogged in that article....

Auris Hybrid not sold in the USA (indeed the US market Corolla of the time although contemporary was not the same car as the Auris). Plus, of course, peak temperatures in the US get much hotter than in the UK.

[rzvrazvan]

I'm scheduled for the same update you had on 08.07, but I'm 90% certain I will not go. Just as you said, it's possible that the new update will lead to a fake save mode, and that's why a lot of money is spent almost in vain!


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[TonyHSD]

Something it’s not right here, already mentioned twice by other members . Two different problems are mixed together. Clogged Battery cooling fan(located on the rear) and faulty inverter (located on top of the the gears, engine compartment). One has nothing to do with the other, even the Battery fan is completely dead only can cause overheating on traction Battery. And if inverter overeats can get damaged internally without any additional damage caused to the battery. The question is ., if the dealer technician didn’t explained properly or the customer did not understood the explanation about the problem with his car. The inverter might had been overheated due to the pump failure, but if the car hasn’t been driven long after that , the inverter may only needed a new pump. Same for the rear battery, may need just cleaning of the fan and that’s all. And here comes whether the dealer are honest and want to help or just see an opportunity to rip off the client who is under pressure in situations like that. 

And reading this post from Los Angeles times seems like people gets problems after software update done as part of the ongoing recall. , what is going on with Toyota . 

[Yahweh831]

I collected the car last weekend. Now it is as good as new with the new inverter. I was told by a service rep that the inverter is like a light bulb - it can burn out after a certain time. For me this is a slight exaggeration. It is not like a fuse that is easy and cheap to replace.

FYI - I did not write that the cause of the inverter failure was the clogged hybrid Battery air duct. They told me that they found it like that. But if you think about it, it could have contributed to the hybrid system overheating and the inverter cooling was not sufficient. I am still baffled that this service job (i.e. cleaning the rear cooling fan and air duct) is not offered by Toyota as part of any service.

To prevent this is in the future, I was told to keep hoovering the car and keep the interior clean. I got a standard 12-month warranty for the replaced parts. Let's hope this won't ever happen again to me.

[qettyz]

On the many posts about HV Battery fail because of dirty HV Fan at priuschat.com, there is none inverter fails because of it.

If HV Battery is too hot, car goes to protection mode and use HV battery less and more engine. This should basicly take also work load away from inverter.

[rzvrazvan]

This is my ventilation grille, I can not say is clean, but not covered by dirt! What I have to do this summer is to dismantle the fan and clean it!

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[Swerve74]

I had this dreaded message about 3 days ago hybrid system fault. I took the back seat out removed the plastic cover and hoovered the fan interior. I also  put a screwdriver in and-pulled lots and lots of black hairy dust etc. We also cleaned the fan blades. I done 200 miles before the fault appeared again I have cleared it again with my universal OBD2 box. I've also this time sprayed the fan with some WD-40 I'm hoping that this will help a little bit lubrication I'll keep you posted. 

[Saxmaniac]

Check the inverter coolant tank for movement of the coolant to prove that the inverter pump is working, there should be gentle turbulence when car is in ready mode 

[Swerve74]

6 hours ago, Saxmaniac said:

Check the inverter coolant tank for movement of the coolant to prove that the inverter pump is working, there should be gentle turbulence when car is in ready mode 

Been under the bonnet this afternoon coolant liquid definitely has movement it's on the low point so I don't know whether it needs a little top up. Also so the fan assembly that is under the passenger rear seat does this this operate all the time or just when needed. Thanks. 

[Saxmaniac]

It runs at a low level most  of the time but is controlled so it can increase speed if the Battery gets hot.  I've never heard mine running but can detect a small air flow