Keyless Security Threat

[arthurpint]

There has been two recent features of an issue with regard to Keyless car security.

firstly in a national newspaper a man was seen on CCTV walking around a home in the early hours holding something similar to a laptop he was trying to pick up a signal from a keyless fob in the house very quickly he found a signal unlocked the car on the driveway and drove off in the car, the owners reported the theft the following day, I believe it was an Audi.

the same CCTV film was then shown on prime time TV as a problem.

the only advice given was fit an electronic device or a crook lock type device or leave your key fob in the fridge at night to screen the transmission signal.

seems to me it is something the manufactures should be correcting.

my Rav is keyless the car is 2 years old cost over £30,000 is a superb vehicle BUT I am not happy if it is that easy to steal.

IS THERE ANY ADVICE FROM TOYOTA ON THIS PROBLEM?

the only thing I assume is if the thief stops the car he will no longer be able to start the car, this is based on the laptop device just extending the key fob range NOT grabbing the signal any advice on this ?

Edited May 28, 2017 by arthurpint
Forgotten part of problem

[IanML]

2 hours ago, arthurpint said:

.....the only thing I assume is if the thief stops the car he will no longer be able to start the car, this is based on the laptop device just extending the key fob range NOT grabbing the signal any advice on this ?

If the laptop can detect the data and retransmit it, it seems quite possible it could record it for later use.  This seems to suggest it can.

[Anthony Poli]

I keep my keys in an Altoids tin, this results in me having almost have the tin touching the door before the car detects the signal. Couple this with the distance the car is from the house (no drive). So hopefully they are more likely to pickup a key fob, but no guarantee that it will be the correct one.

[IanML]

1 hour ago, IanML said:

If the laptop can detect the data and retransmit it, it seems quite possible it could record it for later use.  This seems to suggest it can.

And, in any event, once they have the car somewhere convenient, they can reprogram it via the EOBD connector to accept a replacement fob.

[FROSTYBALLS]

57 minutes ago, Anthony Poli said:

I keep my keys in an Altoids tin

This must provide a 'Curiously Strong' solution to the issue .....

[FROSTYBALLS]

4 hours ago, arthurpint said:

IS THERE ANY ADVICE FROM TOYOTA ON THIS PROBLEM?

As per the disclaimer at the bottom of each page on Toyota Owners Club, we are not associated with Toyota.

I would suggest you contact Toyota customer services and pose the question - https://www.toyota.co.uk/contact-us

[Anthony Poli]

18 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

This must provide a 'Curiously Strong' solution to the issue .....

The dealers never asked what the white powdery coating was on the key fob, when the car goes in for a service 

[daveh_rav4]

Ha hah... I won't fall for this one.  I live on the south coast; I keep my digital car key fob in a lead box at my aunties house in Scotland. Every time I want to drive the car I jump on a train to Scotland, retreive the key fob; train back to the south and bobs yer uncle... security issue solved.

Or is this just another example of all this digital crap that's crept into driving a car? 

Take out all this digital garnish out of cars...  and the cars would be a third cheaper, a lot simpler to use and much less expensive to repair.  Just who is it that keeps asking the manufacturers to install all this tosh.

[arthurpint]

I will add this as a quick idea not a solution based on this type of theft will normally be committed at night when the car is on a driveway next to the home.

it is both a visual deterrent and a method of delaying or obstructing a quick get away which means the thief just might believe the time removing it is just too long forcing them to go elsewhere.

i purchased it off Amazon was a bit reluctant because it came from China direct, the device is very strong the lock is a really good quality and there is nowhere in this country that could duplicate the keys, which can be good and bad if lost.

the Chinese make did worry me but again that can be bad if not a quality product but good because they are not two a penny here.

sadly many NOT ALL of the products sold here now have become too common.

i put the yellow hi viz Tape make it a greater deterrent.

another massive advantage is it was sold as easy use does not damage leather steering wheel which is very true.

i also appreciate that it is not the answer but the delaying aspect is what I like, hopefully I will hear and be quick enough to meet and TALK nicely to the thief.

[arthurpint]

15 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

As per the disclaimer at the bottom of each page on Toyota Owners Club, we are not associated with Toyota.

I would suggest you contact Toyota customer services and pose the question - https://www.toyota.co.uk/contact-us

Thanks for the link I have sent off an email to Toyota UK.

I am interested in their views as it is becoming a serious problem.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Shouting removed

[arthurpint]

26 minutes ago, arthurpint said:

I will add this as a quick idea not a solution based on this type of theft will normally be committed at night when the car is on a driveway next to the home.

it is both a visual deterrent and a method of delaying or obstructing a quick get away which means the thief just might believe the time removing it is just too long forcing them to go elsewhere.

i purchased it off Amazon was a bit reluctant because it came from China direct, the device is very strong the lock is a really good quality and there is nowhere in this country that could duplicate the keys, which can be good and bad if lost.

the Chinese make did worry me but again that can be bad if not a quality product but good because they are not two a penny here.

sadly many NOT ALL of the products sold here now have become too common.

i put the yellow hi viz Tape make it a greater deterrent.

another massive advantage is it was sold as easy use does not damage leather steering wheel which is very true.

i also appreciate that it is not the answer but the delaying aspect is what I like, hopefully I will hear and be quick enough to meet and TALK nicely to the thief.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3374457/from-bmw-to-peugeot-these-are-the-makes-and-models-of-cars-most-at-risk-of-being-broken-into-by-car-thieves-hacking-keyless-cars/

[FROSTYBALLS]

The cars in question were German spec cars, which may differ from UK spec (for example the UK Hyundai i10 isn't available with keyless entry)

I live not far away from Solihull (one of the most affluent areas outside London) and the security of the Range Rover range has been an issue for at least a couple of years due to keyless entry systems - so the Sun article doesn't actually provide any new information.

When you get your reply from Toyota, post the reply within this thread.

 

[IanML]

I think the point is often made that technological measures are always overcome if the incentive is sufficiently large.  My own preference is a simple measure which is too unique for the thief to rapidly overcome. e,g, interrupt the fuel pump supply with a simple switch hidden in a non-obvious position of your own devising.  If the point of interruption and the switch are well hidden and not shared with others, all the thief will see is the CEL.  He isn't going to try to diagnose the problem - he'll scarper.

[arthurpint]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

The cars in question were German spec cars, which may differ from UK spec (for example the UK Hyundai i10 isn't available with keyless entry)

I live not far away from Solihull (one of the most affluent areas outside London) and the security of the Range Rover range has been an issue for at least a couple of years due to keyless entry systems - so the Sun article doesn't actually provide any new information.

When you get your reply from Toyota, post the reply within this thread.

 

Yes I will do.

i hasten to add I am a boring Toyota owner that has purchased many new Toyotas over at least 30 years so I know the product well.

it is just another problem involving electronic security which affects all car manufacturers.

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

The cars in question were German spec cars, which may differ from UK spec (for example the UK Hyundai i10 isn't available with keyless entry)

I live not far away from Solihull (one of the most affluent areas outside London) and the security of the Range Rover range has been an issue for at least a couple of years due to keyless entry systems - so the Sun article doesn't actually provide any new information.

When you get your reply from Toyota, post the reply within this thread.

 

 

[Heidfirst]

47 minutes ago, IanML said:

I think the point is often made that technological measures are always overcome if the incentive is sufficiently large.  

the police have always said that if it's a professional & they want your car enough they will find a way ... All deterrents are there to put off/slow down the more opportunist thieves rather than the small cadre of true professionals.

[arthurpint]

As promised a reply from Toyota UK.

sadly the reply was more defending and advertising the product and the manufacturer as I expected as a result I have cut the contents to the advice on that security issue only.

personally I don't think the reply was given without fully looking into the growing problem.

i did not mention this initially but I was a police officer for 30 years of which 12 years was as a Crime Prevention Officer I am a fully qualified Home Office trained security person.

i do know this is a problem from colleagues still serving especially in the London area.

i feel as I requested of Toyota that one of their security specialists needs to give better advice the advice  I was given is not sufficient  they have sold me a product in excess of £30,000 which is no longer secure.

i have also sent them the pictures of the way the crime is committed, there advice is not really the complete answer.

i have spoken to others within the security world about this problem and am exploring that issue which I  will keep in touch with.

GJS

[vivalacoulter]

30 minutes ago, arthurpint said:

As promised a reply from Toyota UK.

sadly the reply was more defending and advertising the product and the manufacturer as I expected as a result I have cut the contents to the advice on that security issue only.

personally I don't think the reply was given without fully looking into the growing problem.

i did not mention this initially but I was a police officer for 30 years of which 12 years was as a Crime Prevention Officer I am a fully qualified Home Office trained security person.

i do know this is a problem from colleagues still serving especially in the London area.

i feel as I requested of Toyota that one of their security specialists needs to give better advice the advice  I was given is not sufficient  they have sold me a product in excess of £30,000 which is no longer secure.

i have also sent them the pictures of the way the crime is committed, there advice is not really the complete answer.

i have spoken to others within the security world about this problem and am exploring that issue which I  will keep in touch with.

GJS

Is that the only bit? Don't leave it within 2m of the vehicle?

[FROSTYBALLS]

To be honest, no manufacturer will admit to any weaknesses in their security systems or give advice other than that in the owner's manual.

Toyota's security arrangements for each model will have been assessed by experts at the insurance industry's Thatcham Research Centre against Thatcham's New Vehicle Security Assessment, and an insurance group rating issued for that particular model. The same applies to any other manufacturer selling within the UK.  

This issue isn't new, and has been around for a few years.

If you had bought a vehicle from another manufacturer with keyless entry, that would have similar weaknesses.

[arthurpint]

Thanks I am aware of all you say however I appreciate the implications of manufacturers giving advice and all that goes with it but I still believe the manufacturer should at very minimum give advice on how to store the key fob at night.

even to the point of supplying at cost a blocker container.

I Sincerely believe the manufacturers  do owe us an explanation due to the extraordinary easy method of stealing a car almost as easy as leaving the door open with the key in an ignition.

sadly I recently saw a list in the national press a list of all the makes of cars that are vulnerable which is like a supermarket for a robber who no longer needs to break into a home to steal a vehicle.

that is what is called customer care.

[FROSTYBALLS]

23 minutes ago, arthurpint said:

I still believe the manufacturer should at very minimum give advice on how to store the key fob at night.

Something like the following entry in the owner's manual?

To prevent theft of the vehicle, do not leave the electronic key within 2 m (6 ft.) of the vehicle.

The smart entry & start system can be deactivated in advance. (→P. 734)

[arthurpint]

Sorry thanks for repeating their reply.

i think someone is missing the point the keyfob needs to be shielded, at night the car is normally kept by most people far more than 6' away of course unless they take the car into their bedroom, which is not the norm.

i am aware that there is an option to have something fitted I am awaiting a reply from former colleagues but before doing so and not to invalidate the warranty on the car I will pursue the issue with the manufacturers.

fortunatley my son lives in Nagoya Japan I have visited the Toyota works so will make contact for advice.

hopefully an easily stolen powerful car does not kill an innocent person.

thanks

[Heidfirst]

5 minutes ago, arthurpint said:

i think someone is missing the point the keyfob needs to be shielded, at night the car is normally kept by most people far more than 6' away of course unless they take the car into their bedroom, which is not the norm.

or as Frosty says you can disable the functionality on the vehicle should you wish - on my car it is done via a setting on the Touch head unit.

[FROSTYBALLS]

".......the manufacturer should at very minimum give advice on how to store the key fob at night."

Toyota's reply hasn't been repeated. The extract from the manual was in response to your point quoted above. Not rocket science and not difficult to understand really.

[FROSTYBALLS]

On 2017-5-28 at 6:32 PM, Anthony Poli said:

I keep my keys in an Altoids tin

A metal tin is said to block any signal sent to and from the fob. So perhaps a £2.33 investment will be sufficient - see below

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Altoids-Curiously-Strong-Mints-Peppermint/dp/B00289F6LO/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1496262520&sr=8-3&keywords=altoids

M&S also sell their own brand version.