Broken cam shaft

[demek]

1999 Rav4 3dr GX, ~86000 miles, owned from new. Engine cut out, electrics working, garage says no compression and suspects broken cam shaft. Recommends replacing engine for cost of £2000..£2500 (obviously more than the car is worth). Otherwise good condition. Any advice appreciated.

[Mike169]

Broken camshaft, I have never heard of it on a Rav. Has your car had regular oil changes and kept serviced? I have noticed you live in Essex, can I ask which part as I am not happy with your garage's diagnosis and may be able to suggest a place for a better report. Do you know if your engine is fitted with a cambelt or a timing chain as they swop about on Rav engines. Mike.

[demek]

Hi Mike. Yes, serviced every year without fail, last one this August. The RAC guy did seem confident it was a fuel pump problem but the garage said cam belt broken and also no compression. I'm in Hornchurch (Romford is 10/15 min drive away). Thanks for responding.

Edit: according to Toyota info it should be a cam belt, not a cam chain

[Mike169]

Hi Derek, i'm not that far away from you, say 4 miles from Basildon. There is a garage there I have used for years, not for my Toyota but for another car I have. These guys are good and won't rip you off.......they are based in Basildon and I believe will collect your car as they do mine every year for it annual service and an MOT. I have worked in garages for most of my life or even run them and I just don't believe what you have been told. Give these guys a ring, Motor Aid on 01268 591558 and tell them Mike who owns the old Merc 280 in black recommended them as I feel it may help you as I am mates of them so to speak, for the cost of a phone call it won't cost you anything. I am good mates of the general manager, his name is Jason Brett, I sent him baby clothes when he and his wife had a baby sort of thing, what I am saying is I know them well, I can even give you his personal mobile number if needed but to start with i'd rather you went through the usual channels to start with. If you want to send me a private message with your phone number in it i'll give you a call if that will help, it will help if I call the garage saying I know you, we can fib a bit, lol, it's just I am getting warning bells in my head about a broken camshaft.......I suggest you give them a call and do let me know how you get on. Mike.

[demek]

Cheers. PM'ed you.

[demek]

Thanks Mike, really appreciate the advice and phone call but Motor Aid won't take on a Toyota because they don't have the diagnostic equipment for them, only German cars it seems. Now looking at a few local options. Will keep you updated.

[Mike169]

Hi Derek, oh that's a shame, another option for you is another garage I know Colbert Motors, 01268 756650, just say an old neighbour recommended them. They are a good garage but I don't use them so using my name isn't a good idea, again worth a phone call and I am 99% sure they will collect your car. Mike.

[demek]

Double checked with garage, no compression in 2 cylinders. Likeliest option now is to scrap it :-( Anyone know what I could expect? Excellent condition, low mileage, FSH, four new tyres (only 3 wks ago!), 2/3 yr old exhaust. Gutted :-(

[craggle]

A broken cam belt will give no compression on a number of cylinders. Find someone willing to chuck a new belt on it cheap and see what it does.

 

[demek]

Thanks Craggle but so far several garages say ~£500 simply to take the head off to confirm the problem. Does that sound reasonable?

[demek]

According to Toyota garage broken belt usually results in damaged valves.

[Mike169]

Hi Derek, if the cambelt has gone/stripped it's internal teeth there is a good chance that valves in 2 of the cylinders have been bent resulting in no compression, this is very feasible. The £500 you mentioned I think is a bit high but who ever strips it down will want more money to repair the engine which could easily go up to say £2000 and that's if the pistons are not damaged, it's one of those jobs where you just have to keep throwing money at it and almost impossible to give an exact price, it's an open cheque book type of job. The suggestion about getting someone to put a cambelt on it is the way forward but this is the start of the open cheque book as just this first part of the job can result to a few hundred quid, it's all down to if you want to sell it as it is or start throwing money at it. Bad luck mate, Mike.

[daveh_rav4]

This sounds like a busted cam belt to me... never heard of a cam shaft breaking on a stock engine like that with such low milage (unless it had a fault in manufactuer), race car engines yes... where the cam profile is higher and the RPM is generally tuned to a higher level, also, as far as the information I have seen concerning the 2Ltr engines of this vintage is that they are 'non-interferance engines' i.e. if the belt goes south then the pistons 'can't' snare the valves.

For gawd sake... get a competant mechanic to check for a cam-belt break, take the gear cover off, check the cam-shaft, check for bent valves (you don't have to take the head off to do this).  As stated in a previous post... at least give the vehicle the benifit of a cam belt check before towing it down the scrappers. 

Unfortunately, I have seen certain garages tell an unaware customer that their car is uneconomic to repair and that it should be scrapped.  The customer gives them the car to dispose of... and two weeks later you see it driving round the streets apparently none the worse for ware!!!  Not saying that this is the case here... but you have to be aware!

[alan333]

I'm with daveh-rav4 on this one.  Take the rocker cover off and look to see if the belt is intact or the shaft is broken and take it from there.

[demek]

Thanks Dave & Alan. Just got garage to check the info again (online database keyed on reg #). The 99 model is not stated as "non-interference" type and they are still adamant that two valves are busted, explaining total lack of compression. So even if belt replaced the head would still need removing (pushing the cost too far for me). If anyone has access to info to double-triple check I would appreciate it. Want to believe repair is feasible but not looking good so scrapping seems my only option.

@Mike169 oh yes, no open chq book here :-S

 

Edit: sorry I keep saying/reading "head". So "head" removal not needed to check valves/cam-shaft just a rocker cover?

[craggle]

If it's a non interference engine the valves will be held open by the cam, nothing unusual in that. They need to take the cam / rocker cover off and rotate the cam to make sure both valves in that cylinder are closed before doing a compression check.  

I'm not sure what garages charge these days as I do all my own work. 

Craig.

[demek]

OK, thanks all. Execution halted for one day while I check things out :-)

[Mike169]

Hi Derek. So yes I am repeating some of the things that have been said already but all you need to do for now is get a cambelt put on it, take out the spark plugs, Halfords, or other shops of course, sell compression testers and all that needs to be done is screw the compression tester into where the spark plugs come out of and crank the engine over and watch the needle go round on the testers gauge. If the engine has no bent valves then each cylinder should pump the gauge up to say 160 lbs and all the cylinders should show a similar poundage on the gauge plus or minus say 10%. If you have any bent valves then the gauge will not pump up on the dodgy cylinders. A gauge costs around £20, the man who puts the cambelt on should be able to do this and once he has fitted the belt you can ask him to phone you so you can see the readings for yourself so you'll know your not getting ripped off, i.e. him saying he's got to take the cylinder head off when it doesn't need to be. Mike.

[daveh_rav4]

Yup, see if you can positively confirm if this is a non-interferance engine or not... I don't know why, but Toyata, even when supplied with all the engine information and engine number seem reluctant to confirm one way or the other.  Even Toyota mechanics will sometimes debate over which engines are which are not; its very confusing... and it should'nt be. 

Anyhow, craggle has laid out a more exact plan of action for you re the valve gear ^

My current cam belt has done 60,000 miles... but they say these belts will do 90,000. <?>  Personally I hate cam belts, I had one on my last car, a Ford XR2... I was changing that every 40,000 miles, a real pain.  My next car will either have a chain or an electric drive train :) 

[demek]

Thanks again. I'll update you all tomorrow. Fingers crossed :-)

[demek]

Been checked, not good news. Teeth sheered off belt, valves damaged. Elsewhere some nuts rusted, eg, engine mounts. So for me it's too much to repair plus chance of other breakage. The guy working on it is impressed with the rest of the car and suggests selling it for spares/repair. It's had four new tyres on the 17th Oct (spare unused), most of the exhaust replaced 2/3 yrs ago and regularly serviced. If anyone interested please get in touch before Monday. Hornchurch, 01708 448480 (please leave msg if I'm not in). Buyer will need to collect. Thanks everyone for all your help and advice.

PS: I'll get some pictures up this afternoon.

[Notoyboy]

I've been following this thread with interest, as I previously had 2 Citroen diesels with cam belts, covering maybe 300k over 20-30 years.  The first of these I bought at 100k miles, and despite it having been "serviced" regularly, it had (IMHO) never had the cam belt replaced, and I found the start of cracking along the base of a few of the teeth, so just caught in time.  Subsequently I changed the cambelt fairly regularly, and always changed the belt on principle if working in the vicinitiy (eg. water pump).

I've not seen any reference as to how frequently the RAV4 cam belt should be changed, but perhaps in this case the belt was deteriorating more due to age than mileage?  How long had it been on the car I wonder.

Martin

[demek]

@Martin: I had thought every 80k or so but was told (shocked more like) today that it's 60k... or every 5 years. So at 18yrs and 82k I've probably been lucky.

[Mike169]

Hi Derek, sad news about your engine and i'm sorry to read that you are going to sell the car as spares. On this subject you say the tyres are all but new, what make of tyre are they mate? Mike.

[demek]

@Mike169: yes mate, very sad, sat here looking at some pictures taken only an hour ago, no tears... yet ;-) The tyres are 100H HIFLY HT601.