Clutch issues, car won't go into gear.

[Tutunaughty]

Hi all,

Late last week, my Toyota Avensis Tspirit T25 2.2 150hp diesel model wouldn't go into any gear while the engine is on. When I turn off the engine it goes into gear but I turn on the engine with the clutch in and the engine stalls like it is in gear. Something has broken in the clutch, like the release bearing or diaphragm spring maybe? I thought it may have been the clutch cylinders(master and slave) but they are working fine with no leaks?

The clutch wasn't slipping but a couple of times, I noticed it was hard getting into first gear, this was a couple of weeks ago? The car has only done 42K miles?

Should I get just the clutch changed and leave the DMF, seeing as the car had done low mileage?

Thanks

Leon  

 

 

 

[frankie406]

Possibly be the dmf..some cars my mechanic has done dmf on had 19k miles on them.

[Konrad C]

Get the hydraulic system checked, from the master cylinder, the pipe work to the slave cylinder. The good thing the slave cylinder is external, unlike the T27 petrol cars, which is internal. It  is far easier to check the slave cylinder for leaks, and change if necessary.  Pump the clutch pedal, to see if the gears become easier to select whilst stationary. 
Years decades back, I had similar symptoms which was the slave cylinder.
Move on to the more expensive clutch, if the hydraulics are checked as okay. 

[Tutunaughty]

I have checked the pipes and the Master and slave are working with no leaks? I will have to bite the bullet and get the DMF and clutch replaced. :(

[gazza1286]

I've reread your post....  You're saying that the engine always stalls unless the clutch is depressed?   Maybe the car is in gear even when you think it's in neutral ... Have you checked the gear selector cables? If one is broken you would get full movement at the gear knob but nothing at the gearbox. I also presume that there's no drop in the fluid reservoir? Leaks on the master cylinder are difficult to spot.  

[Konrad C]

18 hours ago, gazza1286 said:

I've reread your post....  You're saying that the engine always stalls unless the clutch is depressed?   Maybe the car is in gear even when you think it's in neutral ... Have you checked the gear selector cables? If one is broken you would get full movement at the gear knob but nothing at the gearbox. I also presume that there's no drop in the fluid reservoir? Leaks on the master cylinder are difficult to spot.  

The reservoir is shared with the brake master cylinder, with a pipe feeding the clutch master cylinder. That pipe should be checked. Also with the aid of an assistant pressing the pedal, the slave can be observed pushing the clutch release fork. Also with a suitable lever the release fork movement can be checked. Can the clutch pedal be adjusted?
Links to diagrams of the most of the clutch parts.
 http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3103_clutch-master-cylinder

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/4702_brake-master-cylinder

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3105_clutch-release-cylinder

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3101_clutch-release-fork

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3102_clutch-pedal-flexible-hose/3

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3102_clutch-pedal-flexible-hose/1

If the hydraulic system is working properly the yes the clutch unit is the next to check. Beware of bent release fork!  

The big problem is the DMF. If that is broken, is the shaft bearing also damaged in the gearbox? Hopefully not.

[Tutunaughty]

On 11/10/2017 at 7:23 AM, Konrad C said:

The reservoir is shared with the brake master cylinder, with a pipe feeding the clutch master cylinder. That pipe should be checked. Also with the aid of an assistant pressing the pedal, the slave can be observed pushing the clutch release fork. Also with a suitable lever the release fork movement can be checked. Can the clutch pedal be adjusted?
Links to diagrams of the most of the clutch parts.
 http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3103_clutch-master-cylinder

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/4702_brake-master-cylinder

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3105_clutch-release-cylinder

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3101_clutch-release-fork

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3102_clutch-pedal-flexible-hose/3

http://www.japan-parts.eu/toyota/eu/2007/avensis/adt251r-alfqxw/3_273550_144_352W/powertrain-chassis/3102_clutch-pedal-flexible-hose/1

If the hydraulic system is working properly the yes the clutch unit is the next to check. Beware of bent release fork!  

The big problem is the DMF. If that is broken, is the shaft bearing also damaged in the gearbox? Hopefully not.

Thanks for the diagrams. I am waiting to see what the mechanic says as the car is currently with him at the moment being repaired.

Good point about the bent release fork, I'll mention it to him.

[Tutunaughty]

Update: the car has been fixed, replaced the clutch and dmf.

The mechanic said that the fingers (I assume this is the pressure plate) on the clutch was very worn, meaning that the car was being driven with the clutch being ridden (foot left on clutch pedal while being driven). Ps: it wasn't me as this is really bad practice, It was the first owner! 

Lesson here- Don't rest your FOOT on the CLUTCH PEDAL while driving!!!!!

I'm going to test the car and get pics of the old clutch and post it up here.

Cheers  

 Leon

[Tutunaughty]

The worn pressure plate from my Avensis. Notice the wear in the middle.

[Konrad C]

4 hours ago, Tutunaughty said:

The worn pressure plate from my Avensis. Notice the wear in the middle.

Also don't idle for long with the car in gear and the clutch disengaged. That may have a  similar effect to riding the clutch. I always have the car in neutral and foot off clutch. I always said there is a risk when buying a secondhand car, because you never know how the previous owner/s drove and cared for the car. I had my clutch changed earlier this year, and the car drives much better since.  

[Duggerz]

Also don't idle for long with the car in gear and the clutch disengaged. That may have a  similar effect to riding the clutch. I always have the car in neutral and foot off clutch. I always said there is a risk when buying a secondhand car, because you never know how the previous owner/s drove and cared for the car. I had my clutch changed earlier this year, and the car drives much better since.  

I'm still struggling to understand how this kind of wear will prevent a hydraulic clutch from working as the hydraulics take up the slack due to the wear. I don't doubt that the clutch will feel nasty but I don't see it refusing to work at all. I could see any air in the hydraulics or a leaky cylinder or even lateral wear in the dmf having that effect. Someone please enlighten me.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

[Konrad C]

On 11/18/2017 at 8:25 AM, Duggerz said:

I'm still struggling to understand how this kind of wear will prevent a hydraulic clutch from working as the hydraulics take up the slack due to the wear. I don't doubt that the clutch will feel nasty but I don't see it refusing to work at all. I could see any air in the hydraulics or a leaky cylinder or even lateral wear in the dmf having that effect. Someone please enlighten me.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 

It is hard to explain, but here is my understanding. Taking a normal working clutch with everything in new condition from the master cylinder to the slave, the slave pushes on the clutch fork, which is a lever and pushes against the bearing, and then on the pressure plate spring/lever. Looking at the OP photos of the pressure plate, it has worn enough so there is not enough movement to release the clutch. This is similar effect of a leaking hydraulic system not releasing the clutch. Also if the clutch bearing is less than perfect, the wear on the pressure plate will also be similar the OP's.

When you understand the mechanics and be mechanically sympathetic, you can reduce wear and tear. But you cannot avoid faulty parts in some cases. It can be a lottery buying a secondhand car!

Pet hates not good for clutch life - drivers holding a car on a hill instead of using parking brake, using high revs when doing slow parking manoeuvres, being stationary for a long time in gear instead of neutral, riding the clutch, slipping the clutch when driving along, constant harsh take off. Have I missed anything? 

[Duggerz]

Ah so your saying that due to the wear there isn't enough throw left in the slave cylinder to be able to release the clutch ? That sounds about right, Thanks