Hybrid- Big battery and Little battery

[Catlover]

After couple weeks laid up due operation my 2010 Auris Hybrid failed to light up the dashboard. Had to get Start Rescue out to jump start the small 12v Battery.

Last week in the very cold snap, car had not moved for couple days, went to go out and the READY light initially failed to light up, eventually did though.

As the car has all the Toyota service stamps (66000 miles now), is there an on-line history available which may tell me the little 12v Battery has been changed sometime in the vehicle life. I appreciate a Battery could have been fitted by a 3rd party at some time, but if the previous owner has had services at Toyota then good chance had battery changed their as well, if it has been done.

If no record of battery change, the original now would be about 7 year old. If thats the case I would just change it for Toyota price of £120+vat. Other then that MR T want £50+vat just to test it.

the big Re battery, is the £29 big battery health check available on its own ie not linked into a service??

[Heidfirst]

What you want may be on MyToyota but the service records I have found are often truncated compared to what is actually on the invoice sheet that you get from the dealer for a service.

Yes, the Hybrid Health Check is available separately but it is £39 not £29. It is free with a service & in either case extends the traction Battery warranty for a year or 10,000 miles until the car has been on the road for 11 years.

[Mike J.]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

As the car has all the Toyota service stamps (66000 miles now), is there an on-line history available which may tell me the little 12v battery has been changed sometime in the vehicle life. I appreciate a battery could have been fitted by a 3rd party at some time, but if the previous owner has had services at Toyota then good chance had battery changed their as well, if it has been done.

All the work done on my car including warranty and recalls is visible on the My Toyota website. This includes said info from the previous ownership. Note that this info appeared "automagically" after creating my account.

[Catlover]

Thank you Scott and Mike.

Managed to see the service history, it looks as a 12v Battery was fitted mid year 2016, but I know the car (I purchased mid May 2017 stood for a long time. I presume a long stand could do damage to the Battery?

 

I booked in at Mr T on Monday but its £50+vat to look at the Battery. Dont know whether to go for a new one straight off (£120+vat).

[Heidfirst]

13 hours ago, Catlover said:

I booked in at Mr T on Monday but its £50+vat to look at the battery. Dont know whether to go for a new one straight off (£120+vat).

Do they not do free Winter Health Checks incl. checking the Battery e.g. https://www.easternwestern.co.uk/toyota/servicing/winter-check.php ?

If they don't others do e.g. ... http://www.halfords.com/advice/motoring/service/your-free-5-point-winter-car-health-check

I thought that the price for the Battery was £120 incl. VAT?

13 hours ago, Catlover said:

Managed to see the service history, it looks as a 12v battery was fitted mid year 2016, but I know the car (I purchased mid May 2017 stood for a long time. I presume a long stand could do damage to the battery?

Yes, if it sits discharged for a long length of time it can do damage from which it will never recover.

[Catlover]

Thanks for those links, Scott, interesting.  Re the cost of 12v Battery, I am positive I saw a link showing £120+vat, but where it was - dunno!         £120in vat would be better 

[Devon Aygo]

If the Battery was replaced in 2016 with a Toyota part then it has a 3 year part warranty, so if faulty it should be replaced free of charge.

[Catlover]

Presented my Auris Hybrid at Toyota dealer today. I mentioned My Car was showing a possible Battery fitted June 2016, thus the @problem@ 12v Battery may have warranty left. A print out I was shown lists it as being a key fob Battery. Ah well, all I saw on My Car service list was Batt. 

The dealer did a 12v battery test and it showed up to being good, so the problem must have been a) car not run for 3 weeks following my operation and being off my feet, and b) not being run much since my recovery, and last Wednesday was a very cold night and that almost killed it again.

At least I know its been checked and explanation seems reasonable. As for the £50+vat charge - waived. Thank you Lindop Toyota.

[Heidfirst]

14 hours ago, Catlover said:

Presented my Auris Hybrid at Toyota dealer today. I mentioned My Car was showing a possible battery fitted June 2016, thus the @problem@ 12v battery may have warranty left. A print out I was shown lists it as being a key fob battery. Ah well, all I saw on My Car service list was Batt. 

as I said of MyToyota  " the service records I have found are often truncated compared to what is actually on the invoice sheet that you get from the dealer" 

Anyway, hopefully you are reassured & good on Lindop for not charging.

[delbois]

On 16/12/2017 at 3:36 PM, Catlover said:

After couple weeks laid up due operation my 2010 Auris Hybrid failed to light up the dashboard. Had to get Start Rescue out to jump start the small 12v battery.

Last week in the very cold snap, car had not moved for couple days, went to go out and the READY light initially failed to light up, eventually did though.

As the car has all the Toyota service stamps (66000 miles now), is there an on-line history available which may tell me the little 12v battery has been changed sometime in the vehicle life. I appreciate a battery could have been fitted by a 3rd party at some time, but if the previous owner has had services at Toyota then good chance had battery changed their as well, if it has been done.

If no record of battery change, the original now would be about 7 year old. If thats the case I would just change it for Toyota price of £120+vat. Other then that MR T want £50+vat just to test it.

the big Re battery, is the £29 big battery health check available on its own ie not linked into a service??

Same issue here with my 2013 Auris Excel HSD......fails to start if left unused in cold conditions for 2-3 days.  After the first occasion I recharged the Battery with a smart charger and had a 100mile+ run but it still failed to start a few days later.  I had the Battery checked out by a local electrical shop who confirmed its health was OK.  It's possible there's an electrical leak but these things are notoriously hard and expensive to find.  I now run the car with most of the electrics turned off so don't use the heated seats etc, and the air con only occasionally to prevent stagnation....very irksome to have all these luxuries and not be able to use them.  I now carry a compact lithium ion starter Battery and regularly use the jump point at the fuse box under the bonnet.

In spite of the battery showing as healthy I know from experience a 12v battery often loses its capacity after being run flat a few times so I'm tempted to bite the bullet and fit a new one. However the last time I looked on the internet the cheapest the like-for-like replacement was around £180 and I thought the Toyota offer was FROM £120 and the actual price was dependent on the battery type required but I'd be very happy to be corrected on that!  

I love the car but find it ironic that my first Toyota has let me down more than any other car I've owned.

Update: Just notice another thread ("Toyota Auris Hybrid - Ready light not ready") addresses the same issue with useful info.

[Devon Aygo]

There

6 hours ago, delbois said:

Same issue here with my 2013 Auris Excel HSD......fails to start if left unused in cold conditions for 2-3 days.  After the first occasion I recharged the battery with a smart charger and had a 100mile+ run but it still failed to start a few days later.  I had the battery checked out by a local electrical shop who confirmed its health was OK.  It's possible there's an electrical leak but these things are notoriously hard and expensive to find.  I now run the car with most of the electrics turned off so don't use the heated seats etc, and the air con only occasionally to prevent stagnation....very irksome to have all these luxuries and not be able to use them.  I now carry a compact lithium ion starter battery and regularly use the jump point at the fuse box under the bonnet.

In spite of the battery showing as healthy I know from experience a 12v battery often loses its capacity after being run flat a few times so I'm tempted to bite the bullet and fit a new one. However the last time I looked on the internet the cheapest the like-for-like replacement was around £180 and I thought the Toyota offer was FROM £120 and the actual price was dependent on the battery type required but I'd be very happy to be corrected on that!  

I love the car but find it ironic that my first Toyota has let me down more than any other car I've owned.

Update: Just notice another thread ("Toyota Auris Hybrid - Ready light not ready") addresses the same issue with useful info.

There was an issue early MK2 Hybrids where an electrical glitch in the dash could cause premature 12v Battery drainage, Toyota issued a CSC ( Customer satisfaction campaign ) to do a software update in order to prevent the issue, do you know if this was done on your Auris ?

[delbois]

44 minutes ago, Devon Aygo said:

There was an issue early MK2 Hybrids where an electrical glitch in the dash could cause premature 12v battery drainage, Toyota issued a CSC ( Customer satisfaction campaign ) to do a software update in order to prevent the issue, do you know if this was done on your Auris ?

Thanks DA - I can confirm the software update was done at the time.....from memory it was related to the hazard warning light switch. I did suffer from a couple of flat batteries prior to the software update, which I suspect has had an impact on the longevity of the 12v Battery.  Having thought about it again I realise the car is still within its 5-year warranty period but don't know whether or not the 12v Battery is one of the exclusions .... will check the t&C's tomorrow. 

I also recall a comment on a Prius forum saying that the Prius often needs a 12v Battery replacement every 3-4 years but can't remember if this was a UK or US site so may not be relevant to my Auris issue 😕

[Devon Aygo]

12v Battery is covered under the 5yr/100k warranty if confirmed as faulty

[delbois]

9 minutes ago, Devon Aygo said:

12v battery is covered under the 5yr/100k warranty if confirmed as faulty.

That's good news! Thanks again... I'll get it booked in 👍

[st901]

Eurocarparts website list a suitable 12v replacement at £73.99 , their product code is 444770541 .

Haven't used myself so can not vouch for though .

[delbois]

34 minutes ago, st901 said:

Eurocarparts website list a suitable 12v replacement at £73.99 , their product code is 444770541 .

Haven't used myself so can not vouch for though .

Thanks Andrew. Batteries are a bit of a minefield, especially with non-mainstream hybrid cars which apparently require batteries that can withstand regular high discharge (which standard lead acid batteries cannot).  The OEM Battery is an AGM Battery and is situated in the boot (passenger compartment in the estate version) and therefore has a venting requirement.  All this is enough to scare me off anything that is not a like-for-like replacement or Toyota approved. In any event I've booked it into the local Toyota dealer to be checked out and, I hope, fixed under warranty. Will report back in a week or so! ☺

[delbois]

Put the car into main dealer this morning to get checked out. They called this afternoon to say aux 12v Battery was faulty and will be replaced under warranty - on order so should get car back tomorrow afternoon 👍.   I hope this fixes the problem as I've been having to jump start the car every day recently. Btw I invested in compact (large pocket sized) lithium ion jump start Battery which works a treat...very handy to keep in car.

 

[ColinCK]

I also have discharge problems on my 12v Battery.

The current drain, after car being locked and key fob well away from car for 40 minutes, is 0.12 amps. This is equivalent to 1.44 watts or a quarter of a 5 watt side lamp bulb.

What I did learn from Toyota Assist that when the engine started it charged at 100 amps whilst Battery was flat then gradually decreased. However, when the engine stopped (stop/start) the 12v Battery continued to be charged by the transmission battery at the same rate as the alternator. Gob smacked was I! (Pardon the expression) This was clever stuff! This only works whilst the Hybrid system is switched on, so when jump leads are used there is only a small amount of current employed to do so. The 12v battery is not used (so I gather) to start the engine it is the transmission battery.

I now carry a 12v battery pack like Derek from Aberdeeshire as I expect this battery problem will not go away, plus anything can discharge the battery.

Also Derek, there is no need to restrict electrical consumption whilst engine is running as the alternator is capable of supplying any amount needed.

 

[Heidfirst]

19 minutes ago, ColinCK said:

I also have discharge problems on my 12v battery.

The current drain, after car being locked and key fob well away from car for 40 minutes, is 0.12 amps.

I see that your Auris is a 2014, is your car affected by this? http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-auris-owners-12-volt-flat-batteries

[ColinCK]

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

I see that your Auris is a 2014, is your car affected by this? http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-auris-owners-12-volt-flat-batteries

Hi! Scott, thank you for info. I’ve just spent half an hour trying to find the production date of my Auris - I can’t find it ( vin code 10th digit not recognised!!!).

However, the registration Date was June 2014 so I imagine it was built before February 2014.

I’ll Phone my dealer on Monday and ask them to fix it.

Thank you for help,

Colin

 

[delbois]

Thanks for the information Colin - very interesting. The replacement Battery seems to have sorted my problem thank goodness.  I think the life of the original Battery may have been compromised by being flattened on a few occasions during its first year as a result of the issue highlighted by Scott.  My car had the software update to resolve this issue in mid 2014 (July I think.) 

It is also my understanding that the 12v Battery is charged by the traction battery when the hybrid system is on and continues to be charged even when the petrol engine stops (i.e. during an automatic start/stop). What I don't understand is why the petrol engine kicks back on intermittently when the car is stationery if this isn't required to charge the aux 12v battery - does this mean it's to top up the main traction battery? 

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in a previous post but the most convenient way of jump starting the car is usually to use the jump terminal in the fuse box under the bonnet rather than try to uncover the battery in the boot, esp if there's any luggage. One potential pitfall to be aware of though is to ensure the physical key is not left in the car when jump starting with the doors closed as they may automatically re-lock (and the alarm might sound) when you attach the jump battery. This happened to me a few days ago and was locked out but fortunately I was able to get the spare physical key from the house.

One final point - as far as I understand it the hybrid does not have an alternator as the 12v battery is charged solely by the drive battery when the hybrid system is on. To quote from another Toyota forum: ”No, there is not an alternator. An alternator generates AC current from a belt - and the Toyota Hybrid system does not have a device that generates AC current from a belt. The Highlander does have a AC-DC converter that does charge the 12 V battery whenever the car is driven. This serves the same purpose as an alternator, but is not an alternator” I think this would apply equally  to the Auris but I'm no expert so happy to be corrected!

[ColinCK]

1 hour ago, delbois said:

Thanks for the information Colin - very interesting. The replacement battery seems to have sorted my problem thank goodness.  I think the life of the original battery may have been compromised by being flattened on a few occasions during its first year as a result of the issue highlighted by Scott.  My car had the software update to resolve this issue in mid 2014 (July I think.) 

It is also my understanding that the 12v battery is charged by the traction battery when the hybrid system is on and continues to be charged even when the petrol engine stops (i.e. during an automatic start/stop). What I don't understand is why the petrol engine kicks back on intermittently when the car is stationery if this isn't required to charge the aux 12v battery - does this mean it's to top up the main traction battery? 

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in a previous post but the most convenient way of jump starting the car is usually to use the jump terminal in the fuse box under the bonnet rather than try to uncover the battery in the boot, esp if there's any luggage. One potential pitfall to be aware of though is to ensure the physical key is not left in the car when jump starting with the doors closed as they may automatically re-lock (and the alarm might sound) when you attach the jump battery. This happened to me a few days ago and was locked out but fortunately I was able to get the spare physical key from the house.

One final point - as far as I understand it the hybrid does not have an alternator as the 12v battery is charged solely by the drive battery when the hybrid system is on. To quote from another Toyota forum: ”No, there is not an alternator. An alternator generates AC current from a belt - and the Toyota Hybrid system does not have a device that generates AC current from a belt. The Highlander does have a AC-DC converter that does charge the 12 V battery whenever the car is driven. This serves the same purpose as an alternator, but is not an alternator” I think this would apply equally  to the Auris but I'm no expert so happy to be corrected!

Thank you Derek!

Yes, I too heard there was no alternator but thinking about it logically there must be a generator of sorts.

Both alternators & dynamos are generators using the same process of cutting electrical fields. The alternator needs a diode rectifier to produce DC, the dynamo is also AC  but the current is rectified via the commutator & brushes. They both need voltage regulators to prevent overcharging.

A dynamo’s armature cannot be balanced as well as a rotor in an alternator which is why alternators can be turned much faster than dynamos hence smaller drive pulleys.

I assume the the generator (which almost certainly consists of components that an alternator has) is in the gearbox because it has braking & overun charging - yes the transmission Battery needs to be charged so as to be able to keep the 12v Battery topped up.

I’ve just made a mental note to check up properly on the Auris system. I’m  now retired from the motor trade and lost interest in cars but I need to know how, why and what I have to keep it going.

I just want a car to get me from A to B with comfort & reliability - it’s why I have a Toyota.

Regards Colin

 

[Mike J.]

The Toyota Hybrid system consists of 2 electric motor/generators and one petrol engine. They are joined together via an epicyclic gearbox (sun, planet, ring.). The sun is joined to the smaller electric motor, the petrol engine to the planet gears and the ring gear to the main electric motor which is directly joined to the wheels via a diff. The main electric motor is also a generator when regenerative braking occurs. The smaller electric motor is the starter motor for the petrol engine, it also is a generator when the petrol engine runs. The electric motors only charge up the traction Battery. The 12V Battery is charged from the traction Battery via a high voltage to 12V dc/dc converter. There is also a high voltage to something like 100V for the air conditioning electric pump. Other electric motors are for brake pressure (not a 'normal' servo as the petrol engine can be off!), the water pump (move engine heat to cabin when motor is off) and the electric steering assistance. Note the complete lack of belts and pulleys! All kept working together via a lot of software!

Lots of good stuff here WeberAuto youtube channel.

[Mike J.]

1 hour ago, ColinCK said:

I’ve just made a mental note to check up properly on the Auris system. I’m  now retired from the motor trade and lost interest in cars but I need to know how, why and what I have to keep it going.

I like to think myself as a car DIY-er, but even changing the brake pads involves depressurising the servo system. Given this, I have extended my warranty to 7 years and hope to keep extending it and not have to do any remedial work on it - my old V8 carb powered convertible fulfils my DIY needs  ...

[Mike J.]

3 hours ago, delbois said:

What I don't understand is why the petrol engine kicks back on intermittently when the car is stationery if this isn't required to charge the aux 12v battery - does this mean it's to top up the main traction battery? 

When stationary the petrol motor starts up to keep the traction Battery charge above its minimum and to heat the cabin.