Unable to get 2015 Auris 1.4D Touring Sol Touch System fixed under warranty

[hadenoughofit]

Hi all. This is a first post - in desperation as likely is often the case since the car is nearing the end of the warranty period. The vehicle itself has been excellent, but the Touch System (see below) has never worked properly. The phone (a Galaxy A3) was confirmed compatible by our local importer before purchase - but the problems were also present with a couple of other manufacturer's Android phones tested. The Touch System refuses to display contact names in the call list function, goes randomly much of the time to one or other phone screen, and if the text function is used with much more than few texts in the phone memory it glitches and hangs - taking perhaps 30 sec to re-load the messages every time the function is exited and and re-entered.

It's been 'worked on' repeatedly by the supplying dealer, but their workshop seemed to have no idea what to do. Two other dealers have acknowledged the existence of the problems, but were unable to deliver a fix - a software upgrade was applied which was of no significant benefit. The original dealer escalated the matter to the local importer mid this year who eventually went through the problems in-car with me, accepted their existence  at the time, but failed to respond with a solution. The dealer having procrastinated for over a year is now trying to step away.

Phone settings are potentially an issue (and one was found which resolved the problem of names not displaying in contacts, but it didn't resolve the issue in call list), but we've done a huge amount of research and so far as we and the techs can tell this avenue has been exhausted.

I'm limited in what I can say on a public forum, but an initial recognition that there are problems and willingness to assist seemed to evaporate when help was sought from the importer  - who in turn said they had been in contact with Toyota Europe technical.

My best guess backed up by informal comments from various Toyota techs is that the system has no on board memory, and the bluetooth link is very slow. Which causes the slow loading of texts, and the hanging if it's attempted to use another function while it's going on. ie it seems likely that the system is underspecified  - that the design (which probably dates back to at least 2010, likely earlier) failed to provide sufficiently for the data handling needs of more modern phones. There are additional issues which may be down to firmware/phone incompatabilities too.

The car is an Auris Touring Sol (top spec Irish model - different to UK) bought in early 2015, it was produced towards the end of the last model run. The latest has the same body shape, but re-styled lights etc. It's an Irish spec Sol model fitted with the larger screen Touch system covering radio/media, vehicle related stuff and hands free phone functions - no sat nav. The high spec model was bought specifically at significant additional cost to gain the hands free phone capability.

Whatever the case the matter was for a long time kicked down the road without serious engagement, and is now being stonewalled. We have to think that Toyota as a company for whom reliability is a key selling proposition would not want to let a reputation damaging situation like this run. That if access could be gained to an ear at the appropriate level in Europe or Japan that perhaps this might break the deadlock which has the feel of being a bureaucratic issue.

We're being forced to go legal, but would really prefer that common sense be applied.  Can anybody recommend a means or a channel by which we might gain some leverage on this?

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Contacting Toyota Europe may just get the issue referred back to the importer, Toyota Ireland.

In the UK the contract of sale is between the customer and the supplying dealer, rather than the manufacturer, and any legal action would be against the dealer. May well be similar in Ireland.

[Mike J.]

All you can probably do is to get another software upgrade (if there is one). I managed to get one for free when I pointed out a significant problem - a useful by-product was a NAVI update as well.

The touch system was designed when Nokia was king and it still works well with my Nokia 700 (OLED screen, NAV, bluetooth streaming, Google Maps, etc.). 

[hadenoughofit]

Ta guys. The legal scenario is the the same here FB, I've been doing all I can to keep the dealer behind the 8 ball. It might not be the worst if Toyota Europe referred the matter back to the importer, but a lot would depend on the position they adopted.

It seems however that despite their responsibility the dealer won't move except as dictated from above - perhaps even by Toyota policy. Should it prove correct that there's a fundamental underspecification issue there's probably rigidly enforced rules on handling the matter too. I've a sneaking feeling that a fix would require a higher spec system (hardware as opposed to a software upgrade), and there may not be one available - unless the one in the latest model Auris is a drop in fit. (??)

it used to be years ago that a dealer would go to bat with the importer for you on a warranty matter, but it seems increasingly less so these days - in that if there's even the tiniest possibility of getting off the hook every available card will the case of most brands be played.

I don't know how it is with Toyota, but in these times where manufacturers seem routinely to demand that dealers incur enormous debt in the arms race that decides who has the fanciest high overhead pearly palace premises (and possibly loan the money to do so via their in-house banking, and perhaps finance the trading business too?) they probably can dictate policy. Once in debt any interruption of the franchise presumably would have serious consequences.

Interesting Mike what you say about the Nokia 700. Changing the phone might depending on the situation be the simplest route, but so far as I can tell the Nokia phones these days are Android?

There's lots of differing software upgrades available it seems, each designed to address specific problems. The importer doesn't seem to want to discuss this possibility, and says that while they have lists of known issues for each model phone that my issues don't figure in them - that a software upgrade would not help.

It was a UK dealer that installed the one upgrade so far. It was initially promising, but once the phone returned to a situation where more than a few texts were saved all the old problems returned...

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Toyota Touch multimedia system was carried over from the first generation Auris.

The Toyota Touch 2 system was introduced from May 2014.

[Mike J.]

8 hours ago, hadenoughofit said:

Interesting Mike what you say about the Nokia 700. Changing the phone might depending on the situation be the simplest route, but so far as I can tell the Nokia phones these days are Android?

Don't forget that my phone is 6 years old (similar age to the Touch design) and its OS is Symbian! Interesting that it seems that if you upgrade the phone you need to upgrade the car . The sign of the times.

[hadenoughofit]

I'm presuming FB that the Touch 2 came with the model refresh that saw the restyled light clusters etc. in the body shape which with minor tweaks is still current.

It didn't arrive here until about March 2015. What you say about the system originating with the first generation Auris (the small one  from the early 2000s?) makes sense. The unit in my car doesn't just suffer the problems described, it also is full of really clutzy interface design issues. eg inconsistent use of icons and/or text blocks as 'button's of indistinct extent to activate functions, the auto 'screen off' doesn't work after the phone has been used etc etc.

Yet another bone of contention (this one not raised - no point) is that they sold me the end of model run new car without saying that first deliveries of the upgrade were due within a month or two of when mine was delivered.

It sounds like the Nokia phone route is out then Mike...

It's hard to over emphasise just how disappointed I am with Toyota's handling of the matter, it's not what you expect of a company that plays the reliability card so often in marketing.

I started out very relaxed, and for a year or so from new thought the problem was my then old Android phone. The dealer has never done better than to minimally go through the motions, there's never been any sign of a serious intention to resolve the issues - or of any meaningful troubleshooting engagement. They have been happy to kick the can down the road at my by this stage very significant cost in time and money.

There IS of course an outside possibility that there is a problem with the phone or its settings (not very likely though since others have been tested), but they have never been able to do better than hint vaguely of this as a possibility.

It's hard by now to rule out the possibility that there's a well known issue with the system, and that a policy decision has been taken not to address it.

The one ray of light on the horizon is that the last contact offered the possibility of a 'goodwill' discount if I'd trade  in for a new one. Hard to know whether the point was to provide top cover for the associated, out of the blue and unsubstantiated denial of the problem (2 years later, against the flow the commitment made at last contact, and offering no rationale as to why), or that there's a dawning will to do something.

Trouble is I've no interest in changing the car, and made this clear long ago...

[Heidfirst]

The first generation of Touch came in something like 2011 (my 2012 MY Avensis, built Autumn 2011, had Touch). It was provided by Harman (who also supply the likes of Mercedes) who are now owned by Samsung. Of course to be in production in 2011 it was probably designed a year or 2 earlier.

The phone market moves a lot faster than the automotive oem market is used to & certainly with Android being implemented differently by various phone manufacturers it's pretty much impossible for them to keep up with the incessant release rate of new phones/OS versions & provide full compatibility for all features  in all phones (& that's even before mentioning that there  may be certain features that they may not want available in a car).

[FROSTYBALLS]

The Touch 2 went into the Auris a year before the mid life facelift.

[hadenoughofit]

It sounds then that the it may be the Touch 2 that's fitted in my car FB.

I'm unsure whether fitting a later version might solve my issues. What I do know is that the  support lady I contacted shortly after the dealer workshop formally escalated the matter to the importer (in an attempt to trigger some tech support for said workshop  - quite how in light of this escalation they U turned in recent weeks to without any justification deny the problems I've no idea) very early on in the saga blithely agreed that the system was a mess. (she had one in her own Auris)

She suggested that I might like (!!!!!) to pay Euro700 to upgrade to the newer model Touch system....

I think you're probably right that the Touch system spec hasn't kept up with the evolution of phones Scott - and I can accept that it's no easy job to cover the variations in different models. That however is the obligation that Toyota took on in deciding to offer the system.

It's not acceptable that they when the going gets a bit sticky then should seek to disown or deny the problems. The sales guy made a big play of this fancy system, and I ended up paying out a lot of extra cash for the Sol model mostly to gain the built in hands free phone capability. Which as matters stand was not delivered, and as of three years later still has not been.

The highly unprofessional manner in which the matter has been handled (which feels like it was basically a matter of 'string him out for long enough and maybe he'll go away') has added insult and cost to injury.

It's not as though the problems are insignificant - they are matters of basic functionality. When the call list doesn't display contact names it's not much use (I can't remember the numbers of people that eg called me once three weeks ago), and likewise when it's a largely random matter which screen opens/the possibility is that there will be a long delay in accessing phone functions it's not just frustrating - it's also a significant safety risk in that it's a major distraction for the driver.

 

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, hadenoughofit said:

I think you're probably right that the Touch system spec hasn't kept up with the evolution of phones Scott - and I can accept that it's no easy job to cover the variations in different models. That however is the obligation that Toyota took on in deciding to offer the system.

I strongly suspect that Toyota (& other car manufacturers) have never said that all features would be guaranteed to be available on all phones - indeed they keep a compatibility list of the most common phones https://www.toyota-europe.com/service-and-accessories/my-toyota/bluetooth-compatibility. They will also usually claim that it's phone updates that lose existing system compatibility - they certainly won't guarantee forward compatibility because they can't foretell the future & what Apple/Google etc. may do.  & ultimately Toyota (or other manufacturer) will be passing stuff back to the multimedia equipment supplier (e.g. Harman) for them to support.

It's not acceptable that they when the going gets a bit sticky then should seek to disown or deny the problems. The sales guy made a big play of this fancy system, and I ended up paying out a lot of extra cash for the Sol model mostly to gain the built in hands free phone capability. Which as matters stand was not delivered, and as of three years later still has not been.

Did you make it a condition of the sale? Did you actually try it before you ordered?

The highly unprofessional manner in which the matter has been handled (which feels like it was basically a matter of 'string him out for long enough and maybe he'll go away') has added insult and cost to injury.

It's not as though the problems are insignificant - they are matters of basic functionality. When the call list doesn't display contact names it's not much use (I can't remember the numbers of people that eg called me once three weeks ago), and likewise when it's a largely random matter which screen opens/the possibility is that there will be a long delay in accessing phone functions it's not just frustrating - it's also a significant safety risk in that it's a major distraction for the driver.

If you were in the UK I would suggest that you contact multimedia@toyota.co.uk  However, I would strongly suggest that you make sure of what head unit is actually fitted in your car & the version of the system software that it is running.

I have never had a problem with my phones (Sony/Lenovo) not displaying contact details or basic functionality on either Touch or Touch 2 albeit there has usually been some minor feature that wasn't supported on the particular combo (as I don't buy top of the range phones).

 

 

[hadenoughofit]

Hi Scott. I know that some features don't work on the Touch system with some phones, and I can't rule out there being some attempted  bum covering or other buried deep in the fine print somewhere.

This in my world should it prove to be the case is however far from an acceptable way of handling a matter like this. It's clear that there can be incompatabilities for genuine technical reasons, but this would mean that it's not on to unreservedly pushing the Touch system during the sale process.

Not on I suspect in consumer law/fitness for purpose terms either. The fact is that no reservations were expressed then, or since. The opposite....

The phone as above was anyway specifically approved before purchase by support - I sought this because the compatability lists on their website seemd unreliable. (they referred to lots of phones not available here, and didn't list the Galaxy A3 2016 model at the time - my impression was somebody had cut and pasted a list from elsewhere)

One tech showed me prints from a Toyota system listing some very minor known isues with the various models of the A3 phone - but none as above corresponded with what's going on in my case.

I'm not too bothered by detail matters, but this system is missing basic functionality.

I can't remember the details now, but dug out the system and software details before the service visit when the software was upgraded under warranty. It was actually a UK dealer - in the hope of finding a way around my own dealer's foibles.

It's not a straightforward matter of installing the latest software though. The dealer tech showed me screen prints which suggested that it was more a matter of choosing an upgrade to respond to a specific set of symptoms.  We made the best choice we could at the time, but it didn't help much if at all. It seemed at first to have delivered an improvement, but only because we had deleted most of the saved texts on the phone at the same time so that the data the bluetooth link had to handle was minimal.

We don't so far as I know get Lenovo phones here, but can you say what model your Sony is?

 

 

[Heidfirst]

48 minutes ago, hadenoughofit said:

This in my world should it prove to be the case is however far from an acceptable way of handling a matter like this. It's clear that there can be incompatabilities for genuine technical reasons, but this would mean that it's not on to unreservedly pushing the Touch system during the sale process.

That's really an issue with your salesman/dealer rather than with Toyota imo.

The phone as above was anyway specifically approved before purchase by support - I sought this because the compatability lists on their website seemd unreliable. (they referred to lots of phones not available here, and didn't list the Galaxy A3 2016 model at the time - my impression was somebody had cut and pasted a list from elsewhere)

The compatibility list is always going to be behind the times because somebody will have to source/supply the phones, then they will have to be tested etc. etc. By the time that they have done that & published Google/the phone manufacturer will probably already have moved on a version or more. The current one  does show the Auris with Touch 2 & Samsung A3 (2016) as being fully compatible.

One tech showed me prints from a Toyota system listing some very minor known isues with the various models of the A3 phone - but none as above corresponded with what's going on in my case.

I'm not too bothered by detail matters, but this system is missing basic functionality.

Have you tried deleting the existing pairing & then re-pairing? I agree that I would expect basic functionality (although what exactly that constitutes is probably open to interpretation ...) As I said the oem, Harman, are also a supplier to others like Mercedes so hardly inexperienced.

I can't remember the details now, but dug out the system and software details before the service visit when the software was upgraded under warranty. It was actually a UK dealer - in the hope of finding a way around my own dealer's foibles.

It's not a straightforward matter of installing the latest software though. The dealer tech showed me screen prints which suggested that it was more a matter of choosing an upgrade to respond to a specific set of symptoms.  We made the best choice we could at the time, but it didn't help much if at all.

But perhaps things have moved on further since then?

It seemed at first to have delivered an improvement, but only because we had deleted most of the saved texts on the phone at the same time so that the data the bluetooth link had to handle was minimal.

1 of my old (~6 years) phones is definitely struggling now because it has so much on it that the phone's internal system resources are at it's limits. Could this possibly be true of your A3? Are you in a position to/have you tried using other phones?

We don't so far as I know get Lenovo phones here, but can you say what model your Sony is?

Xperia S/Xperia Z3C. With Samsung now owning Harman (the Touch/Touch 2 oem ) & Samsung being the no.1 Android phone supplier you would expect them to try to get them to work together though. Sony are a relative minnow in phones outside Japan. 

 

 

 

[Devon Aygo]

On Android phones there are a few permissions that need to be "agreed, accepted, ok'd" at the end of the pairing process (often missed ) if missed you do not get asked again and if the permissions are not accepted it causes lots of issues with data transference, can you remember setting these during the pairing process? if not delete the pairing from both car and phone then re-pair and wait for two pop ups on your phone and make sure you accept, agree or ok the pop ups.

[hadenoughofit]

Thanks Scott. For sure as before responsibility for the issues of both the sale and of coming up with a solution ultimately lie with the dealer.

It's not unreasonable however to expect the importer and if necessary Toyota to weigh in with effective second level technical or other support. Ideally to deliver a fix, but to at least in a timely and definitive manner ID the issue and state clearly that they don't have a fix/or that it's a phone or phone set up issue and why.

To string the customer out for almost two years only to have the matter run into the sand with zero clarity on what the position is is unconscionable.

It doesn't inspire much confidence. It's damn lucky the rest of the car has been very good...

The phone shows no sign of struggling (it's the mid 2016 model), my use of memory is minimal. I fairly casually tested a couple of other Android phones, a similar Galaxy and a Huawei Android phone. Both showed the similar symptoms. (it's hard to be 100% precise about the severity, in that the hanging and screen mis-selection issues come and go, and vary in severity)

I hadn't heard before of the potential for mess ups in the pairing process Lee, thank you for what's a definite avenue to check out. It's the sort of thing which might hold some potential to sort out at least the failure to display contact names in the call lists..

[Heidfirst]

14 hours ago, hadenoughofit said:

The phone shows no sign of struggling (it's the mid 2016 model), my use of memory is minimal.

On mine it does seem to be the phone RAM that is struggling (only 1Gb iirc) as I have lots of storage left. Probably a lot of app bloat as hardware got more & more powerful.

Of course no doubt they didn't expect (& certainly did not want) people to keep phones this long but it's been a good phone & done everything that I needed it to well. Having to come to terms to making the decision to changing over to another as my main phone. 

[hadenoughofit]

Hi guys. I'm back again, having deleted and re-paired both systems.

It doesn't seem to have made any difference, but it didn't throw up any pop ups for agreement either.

As before there is a setting to share contact names which is enabled. Mirror link is not, but is not to my knowledge necessary.

The Galaxy A3 2016 is a mid range phone, the Android it runs doesn't have all of the features on the top of the range phones. Toyota still list it as compatible however.

What's impossible at this stage is that the dealer asked that the importer be allowed to work on the issue on the basis that they would promptly define the issue and fix it.

They instead turned around and denied the existence of any problem with the Touch system, but have given zero indication why it's not working properly. (if they actually pointed to something specific on the phone causing the problem it'd at least open the way to sorting out a fix) There certainly was no problem found with the phone while the rep was working on the system, he left promising to respond promptly with a solution.

It's in retrospect hard to conclude other than that the request to be given further access to the car was a cynical exercise to gain access to the system to collect data so that they could construct a defence as to why the problem (never mind that their own workshop manager escalated it to the importer for resolutionafter several visits) is not their responsibility should the matter go legal...