Brake Pipe Failure....

[Exvec]

I have a Toyota Avensis 2.0 D4D Estate 06 plate,

I consider myself and my daughter extremely lucky this morning whilst driving down the M1 taking my Daughter back to Uni i literally lost breaking power and the pedal was travelling down to the floor with the red brake failure warning light illuminating,luckily enough we were travelling quite slowly due to traffic congestion and we were 100 yds or so from the service area,so pulled over into the services,checked the master cylinder and to my horror it was empty.

I had lost all the fluid from a rear nearside brake pipe where it goes under the car from front to back and meets up with some kind of valve going into the rear wheel arch where it joins the flexi hose thing.

Called AA and the patrol guy confirmed that the pipe had been rubbing against some kind of spray suppression covering under the wheel arch .

I need some solid advice on this as the consequences of what could have happened don't bear thinking about.

My questions are ?Has anyone else had this failure...

If so ?did they do the repair themselves or did they get it done at a garage,surely i can't be the only one this has happened to.

I know the car is nearly 12 years old but surely something like this should not be happening,BTW I haven't been involved in any rear end crashes or anything like that.

As said i would be grateful for any feedback.  

 

[oldcodger]

Would be very interested to see a photo of the point of the leak / rubbing; that might help show if it looks like a manufacturing problem or as the result of poor servicing or some debris damage.

As all modern cars have dual brake lines it should have only lost half of the braking , so hopefully not as bad as full braking loss,  plus thats what your handbrake is also for .

As for doing the repair yourself,  if the leak on the metal pipe you will need to buy a whole pipe run from Toyota or do a repair/splice if you have the right flaring tools etc. 

Not something to try if you have not done that kind of work before;   removing the nuts on the pipe joints can easily lead to damaging things as they can be very difficult to undo.

Plus would suggest you have a close inspection of the all the brake pipes, partic the rears which seem more prone to corrosion around the area you describe, though its a point mot inspectors normally home in on for just that reason.

 

[Exvec]

Oldcoger,Yes i will take some pics of the area in question tomorrow and post them up,umm dual braking you say ,well let me just say this like  i have pointed out in my post i was traveling  slowly at 30 odd mph due to congestion when the failure happened  and yes i am aware of the cars dual braking system which i was not impressed with to be honest.You mention the handbrake,no the handbrake is NOT designed to stop you in the event of brake failure,if i had been doing 70odd mph when it happened all the handbrake would do is cause the rear wheels to lock up possibly causing the car to skid uncontrollably

The wear on the pipe was not picked up at the last MOT which was last May, Granted. which it should have been.

Done loads of repairs on brake pipes over the years,but that's not to say i will be doing this repair,just trying to gauge what other people have experienced.

[Parts-King]

On a 12 year old Avensis I would have expected it to have already had a brake pipe. They are steel and quite prone to corrosion. I have never seen a genuine factory fitted one rub through, not to say it could never happen, but unlikely. My guess would be that it has had some remedial work done in the past, either new pipe/shock/suspension work done previously. The genuine ones are clipped in quite well and should never rub anywhere. 

Kingo

 

[gazza1286]

Came across the issue last year. The fibrous matting attached to the rear wheel arch hides a nasty secret... 

The metal brake pipes curl around the front edge of the wheel arch recess. This is covered by this matting which is invariably damp. Consequently these pipes are prone to rust. Removing the matting and applying generous quantities of smoothrite has, in my case, delayed the advancing rot. 

[oldcodger]

14 minutes ago, gazza1286 said:

Came across the issue last year. The fibrous matting attached to the rear wheel arch hides a nasty secret... 

The metal brake pipes curl around the front edge of the wheel arch recess. This is covered by this matting which is invariably damp. Consequently these pipes are prone to rust. Removing the matting and applying generous quantities of smoothrite has, in my case, delayed the advancing rot. 

Well spotted !    - not one I have heard of before, though will be checking the pipes around mine !

[Exvec]

18 minutes ago, gazza1286 said:

Came across the issue last year. The fibrous matting attached to the rear wheel arch hides a nasty secret... 

The metal brake pipes curl around the front edge of the wheel arch recess. This is covered by this matting which is invariably damp. Consequently these pipes are prone to rust. Removing the matting and applying generous quantities of smoothrite has, in my case, delayed the advancing rot. 

That is exactly what appears to have happened Gary,as said i would be very very surprised if this has not happened to anyone else ,the words design flaw spring to mind.If anyone one has the same car i would suggest you get it checked out.

 

[Exvec]

30 minutes ago, Parts-King said:

On a 12 year old Avensis I would have expected it to have already had a brake pipe. They are steel and quite prone to corrosion. I have never seen a genuine factory fitted one rub through, not to say it could never happen, but unlikely. My guess would be that it has had some remedial work done in the past, either new pipe/shock/suspension work done previously. The genuine ones are clipped in quite well and should never rub anywhere. 

Kingo

 

Cheers Kingo,i'm not sure if the car has any repair history of this nature,i suppose when the repair is undertaken this may come to light.

?Do you happen to know what the price is for the pipe and subsequent repair,Rough Idea.?

 

[oldcodger]

Think a question that still needs answering is the point about dual line braking.

While most pictures I have seen of master cylinders ( less the reservoir ) clearly have two separate fluid inputs from the reservoir.

Though you said your reservoir was empty, surely towards the bottom there would be a baffle so if one circuit fails, as yours did, there is still some fluid for the other good circuit, otherwise it seems to make dual braking ineffective.

Assuming there is a baffle or similar on yours,  then why did you loose all braking   ..?

 

[yossarian247]

On 10/01/2018 at 5:17 PM, Exvec said:

Oldcoger,Yes i will take some pics of the area in question tomorrow and post them up,umm dual braking you say ,well let me just say this like  i have pointed out in my post i was traveling  slowly at 30 odd mph due to congestion when the failure happened  and yes i am aware of the cars dual braking system which i was not impressed with to be honest.You mention the handbrake,no the handbrake is NOT designed to stop you in the event of brake failure,if i had been doing 70odd mph when it happened all the handbrake would do is cause the rear wheels to lock up possibly causing the car to skid uncontrollably

The wear on the pipe was not picked up at the last MOT which was last May, Granted. which it should have been.

Done loads of repairs on brake pipes over the years,but that's not to say i will be doing this repair,just trying to gauge what other people have experienced.

Sorry to be contradictory, but one of the purposes of the handbrake IS to be used as an emergency brake in the event of a brake failure.

I had hydraulic brake failure on a car (not Toyota) years ago and by using the handbrake I was able to slow and stop the car safely rather than rear-ending a vehicle which had stopped in front of me. The key is not to just yank the handbrake full on as you will lock the rear wheels and possibly lose control, as you say. Keep the button pressed in and use the handbrake progressively to slow the car. Unfortunately that's not really possible with an electronically operated parking brake however.  

[Exvec]

20 hours ago, oldcodger said:

Think a question that still needs answering is the point about dual line braking.

While most pictures I have seen of master cylinders ( less the reservoir ) clearly have two separate fluid inputs from the reservoir.

Though you said your reservoir was empty, surely towards the bottom there would be a baffle so if one circuit fails, as yours did, there is still some fluid for the other good circuit, otherwise it seems to make dual braking ineffective.

Assuming there is a baffle or similar on yours,  then why did you loose all braking   ..?

 

"then why did you loose all braking "  ..?No idea i didn't design the car, but i did lose all braking ,the master cylinder was empty ,i'm baffled by the baffle you mention  ..The fact remains that this kind of failure should not be happening and once again i urge all owners to get there pipes checked.Pull off the rubber covering and check behind it for wear or from rubbing or decaying pipes.

[Exvec]

2 hours ago, yossarian247 said:

Sorry to be contradictory, but one of the purposes of the handbrake IS to be used as an emergency brake in the event of a brake failure.

I had hydraulic brake failure on a car (not Toyota) years ago and by using the handbrake I was able to slow and stop the car safely rather than rear-ending a vehicle which had stopped in front of me. The key is not to just yank the handbrake full on as you will lock the rear wheels and possibly lose control, as you say. Keep the button pressed in and use the handbrake progressively to slow the car. Unfortunately that's not really possible with an electronically operated parking brake however.  

Yossarian,still not sold on your explanation of the handbrake being utilised as an emergency brake,thankfully i was in quite heavy traffic on the M1 near Trowell services so i was only doing 30 odd mph,if i had been doing the regulatory speed limit all i will say to you is, i more than likely would not be writing this post now and my Daughter would not be studying medicine at Oxford uni anymore that's how serious i am viewing this situation

[oldcodger]

This recent text might convince you, though as said its not as often referred to today as the Emergency Brake, but as any older mechanic will tell you, it was.

Or put another way, if your brakes fails again ( haven forbid), will you just sit there and let it crash into a wall or car, or will you be pulling on the handbrake for dear life ?

Have only ever had the brakes fail once ( not dual line) in my many years and the handbrake stopped me up again a kerb rather than the wall the other side of the pavement which I would have doubtless hit if it was not for the handbrake.

Its one of those things that seems to have been lost to some modern motorists, like parking on a hill with just the handbrake on and not leaving it in gear/reverse or with the steering wheels pointed to the kerb and then seem surprised when it rolls away , if there is the slightest issue with the handbrake.

Have you been able it inspect the master cylinder reservoir to see if it does have some baffle /segmented areas at the very bottom to service each line ?

If it does, it could possibly mean there is a partial failure elsewhere ??

Wonder if any other member has handled one and can say if they have or not ?

 

A parking brake (also known as an emergency brake) is part of the vehicle’s braking system. You will see a lever inside the car, often by the center console, which may be engaged when needed. Because of this lever, another term that is also used to describe the system is a handbrake.

What a Parking Brake Does

The original designation for a parking brake was to stop the vehicle if the main brake system should fail, which is why it was known as an emergency brake. In modern vehicles, the emergency brake isn’t very effective at this task because it cannot adequately stop the vehicle with the small amount of force applied. The parking brake is connected to the rear brakes, which do not exert as much force in braking as the front brakes and will do little to stop a vehicle moving at high speeds.

Most modern applications of the parking brake is to ensure that a parked vehicle stays in place, especially on hills and other declines. When engaged, it locks the wheels in place and works with the parking pawl to ensure that the vehicle doesn’t roll away. While a parking brake isn’t required to be engaged for the vehicle to stay stopped, it works to prevent your vehicle from rolling, especially on steep inclines, and to reduce stress on the transmission. This is why manufacturers recommend using the parking brake even when the driver doesn’t feel like he or she needs it.

[oldcodger]

Hi,

Think you can see from this links text and diagram of the master cylinder how the reservoir has two separate sections so you should not loose all braking unless you also have a failure in the master cylinder area.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how-master-cylinders-and-slave-cylinders-work-and-their-importance/

Looking on my corolla you cannot readily make out the internal section, though even my model has a brake fluid low level sensor; you did not mention your brake check light coming on ?

[Exvec]

you did not mention your brake check light coming on ?.....That's because it never came on ,there was no warning the pedal just sunk to the floor, in so far as dual circuit braking is concerned it may as well had not been there,like i say i did use the handbrake but if i had been going any faster i would have crashed no doubt about it.

 

[LesterWilde]

Just had the same problem today with a 56 plate avensis estate. Fluid in Res. Brake all the way to the floor. Scary. Any pointers on were to start looking? 

[paul9]

If the fluid level is still okay, then possibly the master cylinder has failed?

[Alan1234]

Unsavoury as my comments may sound ,you are the owner and driver of the vehicle and in such you are responsible for the maintenance of the car ,people rely to much on the mot test which is only a 45 minute glaze over of your old car .they will not pull back covers etc it is only what they can see .i recommend having a thorough service and full inspection of the car at least once a year. Or  more if you continue to drive an old banger . One last thing you should be checking your levels and all warning lights work and then  go out as per manual on a daily / weekly basis .this includes the brake warning level .if the pipe did spring a weep you would have felt a soft pedal instantly .if you weren't aware this used to happen a lot on older cars with weeping rear wheel cylinders .