Brakes locking even on light snow

[Fi B]

I have a 2011 Yaris T Spirit, which I got in the summer, my first ever Toyota.  I do very little mileage, c60 miles per week, just around town, the brakes seem good and my tyres all look in good shape, but as soon as we started to get a bit of ice or light snow on the road, I've had a few near misses with the brakes seeming to lock.  It doesn't skid, as in I don't lose the back end, but the car feels as though it's not responding to the brakes at all, and something, presumably the brakes, is making a really loud grinding noise.  I have been driving for 30 years and I've never had any issues in snow and ice before, so I'm not an inexperienced driver, but I've never had a car with ABS before, so I'm wondering if you need to brake differently in icy conditions with ABS?   I'm not a speed demon, so I'm not approaching junctions too quickly, I've had Corsas for the last 20 years and actually I find the Yaris quite flat by comparison, so it's a steady drive everywhere, but it really doesn't cope with even a hard frost on the road let alone ice and snow.  We had a light/medium snow shower yesterday while I was out, and the drive home was horrendous, even though I never got above 15 mph.  It's totally put me off using it in winter weather as I feel it's only a matter of time before I have an accident with it.  Any advice on whether this is common and do I need to adapt my winter driving for ABS and if so how?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

Moved to the Yaris club.

How much tread do the tyres have?

[mrpj]

"presumably the brakes, is making a really loud grinding noise."

When were they last checked for pad and /or shoe material - sounds a bit like metal to metal contact?

[craggle]

Sounds like the normal noise ABS makes when it's working to me.

Craig.

[Fi B]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Welcome to Toyota Owners Club.

Moved to the Yaris club.

How much tread do the tyres have?

Thanks all,  I'll reply to each of you:  can't tell you in mm but they all easily pass the 20p test and I can't see any worn or bald patches on any of them.  I haven't checked if they're 'all weather' tyres, but I thought most were these days anyway?

43 minutes ago, mrpj said:

"presumably the brakes, is making a really loud grinding noise."

When were they last checked for pad and /or shoe material - sounds a bit like metal to metal contact?

I'm guessing when I got the car, from Evans Halshaw last May, as they MOTd it when I bought it.  I've done less than 2000 miles since then, but also, there's no noise in non-icy conditions and I've tested braking hard from speed in the dry to see if I can replicate it but I can't.

28 minutes ago, craggle said:

Sounds like the normal noise ABS makes when it's working to me.

Craig.

I do need to read up on ABS, but isn't it supposed to be a safety feature?  This scares me as the car doesn't stop when I expect it to and I don't feel in control of it.  There's no option to turn ABS off so I can't see if that would make a difference unfortunately.  If it's not brakes or tyres, do you think it's just me needing to get used to ABS and adapting how I brake in icy conditions?

[Heidfirst]

2 hours ago, Fi B said:

Thanks all,  I'll reply to each of you:  can't tell you in mm but they all easily pass the 20p test and I can't see any worn or bald patches on any of them.  I haven't checked if they're 'all weather' tyres, but I thought most were these days anyway?

The legal limit is actually below where it should be imo. I change my summers at ~3mm (2x the legal minimum) & winters at 4mm. & no, the vast majority of tyres in the UK are not all season/all weather. As well as tread depth tyre quality can also be an issue - what are the tyres fitted & are they the same all round?

I do need to read up on ABS, but isn't it supposed to be a safety feature?  This scares me as the car doesn't stop when I expect it to and I don't feel in control of it.  There's no option to turn ABS off so I can't see if that would make a difference unfortunately.  If it's not brakes or tyres, do you think it's just me needing to get used to ABS and adapting how I brake in icy conditions?

ABS is a safety feature but is not an universal panacea for the conditions.

 

[Fi B]

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

The legal limit is actually below where it should be imo. I change my summers at ~3mm (2x the legal minimum) & winters at 4mm. & no, the vast majority of tyres in the UK are not all season/all weather. As well as tread depth tyre quality can also be an issue - what are the tyres fitted & are they the same all round?

Hmm, just checked, they're Kumho Ecowing ES01 on the rear and Autogrip Radial F101s on the front.  Have to admit I've never heard of either, so I've just googled them and neither of them seem to have good reviews for wet or icy grip.  They look to be in really good condition, but obviously if they're basically poor quality I need to change them.  Would you recommend any make in particular?  I find that, as a woman, a lot of garages try to sell me overpriced parts as they assume (quite rightly I have to say!) that I don't know any better :)

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

ABS is a safety feature but is not an universal panacea for the conditions.

I'm old school, I don't trust any new technology :) My point about this is that I've driven for 30 years without ABS and skidded only a handful of times, and always only in extreme weather conditions, whereas now, it's every time I go out in a hard frost or light snow.  Hopefully it is my tyres though, and not my inability to drive with ABS!

1 hour ago, Heidfirst said:

 

 

[Heidfirst]

to quote from a review of those Autogrips (I had never heard of them either). " Never had a serious issue before with budget tyres but these managed to frighten the life out of me on wet surfaces." http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Autogrip/F101.htm

Kumho are a fairly well known 2nd tier tyre manufacturer & probably on the verge of gaining parity with first tier.

If the Kumhos are in good condition I would start by changing just the Autogrips first.

Not sure what size are on your car & your budget but if Michelin Crossclimate or Crossclimate+ are available to suit these are all season/weather tyres but biased towards summer use which tends to suit most of the UK better all year than those that are developed with a winter bias. Another worth considering would be Goodyear Vector 4 Season gen 2.

Prices for the same tyre vary enormously between retailers so I strongly suggest that you check around first. It may well be worth buying the tyres from an online source & having a local company fit them.

[Fi B]

Thanks Scott.  Yes I saw that quote, actually made me feel better knowing it's probably the tyres so I can fix it easily.  I'd also found good reviews on the Michelin Crossclimates, so along with your recommendation, that's what I'll be changing to.  Cheapest I can get locally is £87 each fitted from ATS, which doesn't seem too bad.  I can't afford all four at once, so I'll take your advice and change the Autogrips first, then change the Kumhos next month.  I'll post an update if it fixes the problem.  Now I think about it, although I haven't skidded or had the wheels lock in wet weather, the wheels were quick to spin on standing starts in the wet; I'd put that down to me taking a long time to get used to the clutch but from the reviews, that maybe should have been an early indication that the tyres weren't great.  You live and learn, I'll definitely always check the make of tyre as well as the condition of them when I change my car in future :)

[mrpj]

Check online for prices - e.g. Blackcircles.com (other suppliers are available). Enter your reg. and confirm the car. I've always found them to be very competitive. Price is "all in" and includes local fitting to your postcode.

You can always get an online price and see if ATS or similar will match it.

[Fi B]

1 hour ago, mrpj said:

Check online for prices - e.g. Blackcircles.com (other suppliers are available). Enter your reg. and confirm the car. I've always found them to be very competitive. Price is "all in" and includes local fitting to your postcode.

You can always get an online price and see if ATS or similar will match it.

Thanks Peter, I did check Blackcircles and they were just a few pounds more expensive than ATS, and that was with ATS fitting them too.  However, I've just looked again, and they offer 6 months interest free which I might go for, so I can get all four done now and pay it over 2 months. 

[alan333]

Swap your Kumhos to the front and see if it makes any difference.

[Fi B]

Just to update, I got all four tyres changed to Michelin Crossclimates, buying online from Blackcircles and fitted at my local ATS.  The garage confirmed that my brakes were all good and although the tread was a minimum of 6mm on all my old tyres, they agreed that the Autogrips wouldn't be any good in wet or icy weather.  I don't really know why they're sold in the UK when we certainly have plenty of wet weather all year round let alone ice in winter.

Anyway, it feels like a new car.  Much better at cornering, I can really tell the difference in grip even on a dry road, but on wet roads it's dramatically improved and this morning it was icy for the first time and absolutely no problems at all, no difference in the stopping distance and the ABS didn't kick in.   I didn't take advantage of the interest free option with Blackcircles in the end, so it was costly to get them done in one go, but the value of being safer on the road, for me, the car and other road users, is priceless.  Thanks all for the advice, much appreciated

[FROSTYBALLS]

NB. Both Blackcircles and ATS Euromaster are owned by Michelin.