Prius vs. PiP

[YarisHybrid2016]

Hi,

What exactly is the difference? I know the PiP has a Li-Ion Battery and can drive miles on pure electric, but on the hybrid side of the car, what is different? Does it have reduced range when it is unable to use the Battery (in other words, when it is working as a straight hybrid, how does it compare)?

Apart from this, and a few styling feature differences, are they the same? I'm trying to work out if it is worth the cost of the PiP vs. the standard Prius - I'd be happy with either!!!!

Thank you.

[Cyker]

Mainly the Battery IIRC. My info is probably a bit rusty, but from what I remember they were virtually identical except the Plug-in Battery gave some extra range and let you drive the car only on the battery; The normal HSD can't run off the Battery alone above a certain speed.

The most stupid thing about the original PiP, assuming they haven't fixed it yet, is that you CANT charge the whole battery off the HSD; The battery is artificially split into two parts - One part acts as the traction battery that normal HSDs have, and you can charge this as you normally would.

The other part is the PiP battery, which can ONLY be charged from the mains! If that runs out, you're effectively lugging around all the extra weight for no reason as the regen can't use it and the HSD won't charge it.

Why, are you looking to swap your Yaris HSD already??? 
 

[CPN]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

The other part is the PiP battery, which can ONLY be charged from the mains! If that runs out, you're effectively lugging around all the extra weight for no reason as the regen can't use it and the HSD won't charge it.
 

 

That really is quite silly! What were they thinking??!

[PeteB]

I would have loved a first generation PiP instead of my Gen 3 Prius, even with it's small (9-13 mile) range.  For my driving, most days of the month I would use almost no petrol, and of the one or two days where I do longer trips, it would behave as a normal Prius.

What killed my interest was no spare wheel, and nowhere sensible to put one.  Some owners did buy a spare, but it either sits loose in the boot taking up space, or can be wedged into the cable stowage hole, but it blocks half of the boot so has to be removed to get anything sizeable into or out of the boot.

The new one gets more EV range (about 30 miles) and improved driveability on electric, but loses a seat (only two rear seats with some sort of divider between them) which makes it slightly less attractive, and another big killer in my book, a strange Bat-Mobile-esque double curved rear window, which presumably is why there's no rear wiper.

If it was identical to my Gen 4 Prius but with a plug-in capability I'd have one.

[Chris Dance]

I was all set to get a PIP in exchange for our previous Gen 3. I had British gas install a charging point in my garage. When I found out  the PIP had no spare wheel that changed my mind.

I had needed to use the "skinny" spare after a tyre split late at night on a previous Gen 3. The AA chap who came out stated it was a good job I had a spare wheel or Icould be stuck to early morning. In my case "gunge" would have been useless.

I am pleased I did get the Gen 4. I am well pleased with it.

[YarisHybrid2016]

Thanks for the info on the PiP. I had heard that it could charge the Battery to 80% IIRC in a charge mode (according to a video by a PiP owner - it was a US version if it makes a difference), but using the ICE to do that is obviously far more costly than using a mains charger.

If it is only 50% though, then that makes even less sense. Anything to do with qualifying for the plug-in car grant?

10 hours ago, Cyker said:

Why, are you looking to swap your Yaris HSD already??? 

I originally wanted a Prius, but it was beyond my budget. I figure if I'm going to change it, the next 3-6 months would be the best time (my Yaris will be 3 years old in September). The major thing holding me back is the fact the Yaris is awesome.

The PiP looks good on paper, in that many of my journeys can be covered in electric only, and has the benefit of the hybrid system for longer journeys.

[kithmo]

I seem to remember reading there was no pre-heat function on the PIP (Gen 3 shape) as well as no spare.

[YarisHybrid2016]

28 minutes ago, kithmo said:

I seem to remember reading there was no pre-heat function on the PIP (Gen 3 shape) as well as no spare.

Pre-heat is on the "nice to have" list. My Yaris doesn't have it, but it doesn't take long to get it going (5-10 minutes, which by the time I've messed around cleaning the outside of the windows and lights, passes pretty quickly anyway).

From what I've been reading, the new PiP has it, but I don't know if it is available in the UK. Apparently there is a button on the key fob for it.

[PeteB]

36 minutes ago, kithmo said:

I seem to remember reading there was no pre-heat function on the PIP (Gen 3 shape) as well as no spare.

On the Toyota website it says there is a timer setting to allow pre-heating or cooling of the car.

I can't find any reference to a key fob function, but it's possible, as the Gen 3 Prius Solar Roof version had a fob button a turn on the A/C remotely.

This wasn't feasible on the first PiP as it didn't have a heat pump type heater, it had to run the engine to heat the car, which disappointed a fair few owners as they either had to wear thick coats and use the heated seats or run the engine just to heat the car.  Annoying if a commute could otherwise have been done without using any petrol.

[PeteB]

10 minutes ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Pre-heat is on the "nice to have" list...

sure, but makes more sense on a plug-in as it means you can depart with a full Battery and the car at the right temperature, otherwise any heating or cooling done at the beginning of a journey would be at the expense of EV range.

[YarisHybrid2016]

54 minutes ago, PeteB said:

sure, but makes more sense on a plug-in as it means you can depart with a full battery and the car at the right temperature, otherwise any heating or cooling done at the beginning of a journey would be at the expense of EV range.

That's a good point!

[QuantumFireball]

23 hours ago, Cyker said:

The most stupid thing about the original PiP, assuming they haven't fixed it yet, is that you CANT charge the whole battery off the HSD; The battery is artificially split into two parts - One part acts as the traction battery that normal HSDs have, and you can charge this as you normally would.

The other part is the PiP battery, which can ONLY be charged from the mains! If that runs out, you're effectively lugging around all the extra weight for no reason as the regen can't use it and the HSD won't charge it.

I don't think it's stupid at all. The whole point in a PHEV is being able to use energy from mains electricity to complete short journeys, as it is a hell of a lot cheaper than petrol and also takes emissions away from urban areas. Using the ICE to fully charge the Battery achieves neither of those, and will return worse fuel economy than running the car in hybrid mode. As said, the current Prius PHV has a charge mode, but it is only really intended for use when driving into areas with restrictions on emissions (of which I'm not sure any exist yet).

Also, you can benefit from the larger Battery with regen - often when I've gone below the EV Mode threshold (i.e. it's running like a normal Prius) and I am braking downhill, the EV Mode range indicator will re-appear and I can enable it again for maybe 0.4-0.8 miles or so.

I assume @YarisHybrid2016 is talking about the current generation PHV? I believe some changes were made to the transmission to allow it to run at up to 135 km/h in EV Mode (higher than the 85 km/h in mine, and much lower limits in the standard Prius). Personally, I think it looks a lot better than the standard 4th gen Prius too.

[johalareewi]

On 01/03/2018 at 9:41 AM, Cyker said:

The most stupid thing about the original PiP, assuming they haven't fixed it yet, is that you CANT charge the whole battery off the HSD; The battery is artificially split into two parts - One part acts as the traction battery that normal HSDs have, and you can charge this as you normally would.

The other part is the PiP battery, which can ONLY be charged from the mains! If that runs out, you're effectively lugging around all the extra weight for no reason as the regen can't use it and the HSD won't charge it.
 

Err. That was the pre production test PIP.  The real PIP is not as you describe.

The PIP has one HV Battery which is charged the same way as in the  non-PIP via regen braking. It can also be charged from the mains electricity and many EV charge points.  It doesn't have to be manually charged but being able to charge it up overnight means you leave home with 4kW of electricity on board instead of whatever is left over from the last journey.

The new PIP behaves the same but has an even bigger HV Battery.

 

 

 

[QuantumFireball]

I think they're talking more about the "split" in the way the Battery is presented on the display (in the 1st gen PHV): The solid Battery gauge with EV range shown below it, versus the segmented gauge (same as standard Prius) when it's in hybrid-only mode (when it's around 20-30% SOC). They are just incorrect regarding being able to return to EV mode capability from regenerative braking, which is totally possible in the right conditions.

[johalareewi]

On 01/03/2018 at 6:19 AM, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Hi,

What exactly is the difference? I know the PiP has a Li-Ion battery and can drive miles on pure electric, but on the hybrid side of the car, what is different? Does it have reduced range when it is unable to use the battery (in other words, when it is working as a straight hybrid, how does it compare)?

Apart from this, and a few styling feature differences, are they the same? I'm trying to work out if it is worth the cost of the PiP vs. the standard Prius - I'd be happy with either!!!!

Thank you.

Having had a gen3 prius and now a gen1 PIP, I can answer your question (unless you want to compare the gen2 PIP with the gen4 Prius)  :)

Styling wise the gen1 PIP is the same as the facelift (2012) gen3 prius but has heated seats, LED headlights, remote control aircon and a different arrangement in the boot.  Because of the larger HV Battery, there is less underfloor storage and no spare wheel well.  Also, the toolkit is stored under the front passenger seat.  If the lack of a spare is an issue, the PIP has a rear storage area for cables which can take a space saver spare standing up but it will stick up into the boot area.

The UK PIP does not have a PWR mode but it does have HV/EV mode.

HV (Hybrid Vehicle) mode is just just like a normal prius with a large Battery except that you can go up to ~53mph on the electric motor before the ICE kicks in.  The range is not reduced.  You can get better mpg over a standard prius so the range is potentially increased.  Many owners in the USA run their PIP as a Prius (never plug them in) because they are as cheap to buy and perform better than a standard prius.

EV (Electric Vehicle) mode switches the PIP into an electric car running only from the HV Battery.  You can only do this if the HV battery has >1kW of charge and the speed is <53mph (and a few other reasons).  When the PIP can't operate in EV mode it switches to HV mode.

For me, the PIP wins over the Prius because I can charge it up overnight and do 50% of the commute on electricity (3p a mile vs 9p a mile).  On longer journeys when the HV kicks in, it is just like a normal Prius.  I can also charge up when out and about but because the battery is so small (compared to EV cars) it can be more expensive to use EV charging points rather than buying petrol.

See also my fuelly consumption.

[johalareewi]

1 minute ago, QuantumFireball said:

I think they're talking more about the "split" in the way the battery is presented on the display (in the 1st gen PHV): The solid battery gauge with EV range shown below it, versus the segmented gauge (same as standard Prius) when it's in hybrid-only mode (when it's around 20-30% SOC). They are just incorrect regarding being able to return to EV mode capability from regenerative braking, which is totally possible in the right conditions.

The pre production PIPs were exactly as described by Cyker.  They appeared to have 2 HV batteries one for EV mode which could only be charged from the mains, and one for HV mode chargd via the HSD.  The reality was there was only one HV Battery which was split into 2 virtual batteries.  I guess during testing they realised this was bonkers.

[PeteB]

1 hour ago, johalareewi said:

...They appeared to have 2 HV batteries one for EV mode which could only be charged from the mains, and one for HV mode chargd via the HSD...

I read that they very earliest experimental PiPs had two 'ordinary' HiMH Hybrid batteries, one on top of the other (half filling the boot).  It was said to be an early attempt to develop the changes to the rest of the Hybrid system to manage the different charging and discharging requirements, and the changes necessary to allow higher cruising speeds and better acceleration in EV mode.  I guess they had other teams working separately on developing the LION Battery technology necessary to make it all work.

I awaited the arrival of the 'official' PiP with eager anticipation, having had occasional use of a company 2007 Gen 2 Prius with an Amberjac Plug-In conversion.  It too used LION technology and they managed to fit enough juice into it to give almost 40 miles EV.  It still had the problem of needing the engine as a heater, and din't have the benefit of heated seats.

I could get up to about 1½ thousand miles out of a tank of petrol sometimes, and at home charged it on off-peak electricity, plus recharges at the office.

The clever thing about the conversion was they made no changes to the Hybrid setup - it plugged into the same connector as the old Battery and 'lied' about the state of charge, claiming the Battery was maxed out until the State of Charge got down to (IIRC) about 15% then behaved like a standard Prius.  The maxed out condition made the system use EV mode as much as possible, and with medium acceleration would get up to around 60 mph without bringing in the ICE.

AND they managed to keep the space saver under the boot floor.  I was truly gutted when I found out the Toyota PiP didn't have space for a spare, as I saw some pictures of it being stored upright just inside the tailgate and it would have to be moved every time a medium size object was put into or out of the boot.  I've had too many tyre problems where gunk wouldn't have worked over the last 20 years to even consider run flats, never mind gunk.

I did hear of a PiP owner who had a tyre burst, the AA took him and his car to his home, then without access to a working car he had to get himself and his wheel to a tyre shop (and back).

[Mike J.]

On ‎01‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:19 AM, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Apart from this, and a few styling feature differences, are they the same? I'm trying to work out if it is worth the cost of the PiP vs. the standard Prius - I'd be happy with either!!!!

I looked at the Toyota website last week and the main body differences were that the Plugin version was around 150kg heavier (2 passengers worth) and is also longer.

[nespresso]

Am considering my third Toyota Hybrid and really want to like the Toyota Prius Plug-in. Really like the easy relaxed hybrid driving experience and the range on Battery alone would cover my daily commute nicely. I don't mind that that it is longer, heavier and only carries two rear passengers but the large Lithium Ion Battery in the boot bothers me. Looking at photos it appears to be positioned high up, around the middle of the rear passenger seats. In a collision, frontal and especially rear-end, it will want to slide forward into the seats. My kids travel in those seats! I guess you could say the same about any rear luggage, but a heavy slab of lithium-ion Battery... 

[johalareewi]

1 hour ago, Mike J. said:

I looked at the Toyota website last week and the main body differences were that the Plugin version was around 150kg heavier (2 passengers worth) and is also longer.

That is the new gen2 PIP.

The original gen1 PIP used  the 2012 facelift gen3 Prius bits and pieces so bodywise they are the same.  The only external differences are the flap for the electric charge lead and the PlugIN decal (and the LED headlights when they are on).  There aren't too many internal differences either.

[johalareewi]

2 hours ago, PeteB said:

I read that they very earliest experimental PiPs had two 'ordinary' HiMH Hybrid batteries, one on top of the other (half filling the boot).

They probably did.  A couple of guys on Prius Chat had early test PIPs on loan from Toyota and posted their experiences.

[Mike J.]

14 minutes ago, nespresso said:

Am considering my third Toyota Hybrid and really want to like the Toyota Prius Plug-in.

What I would love Toyota to do is to make a 'simple' Yaris Plug-in. My investigations show that the NIMH Battery under the seat is about 1kWh in 'size'. As (I believe) Lithium Ion batteries are twice as energy dense as NIMH, you could fit a 2kWh Battery - good for 8 miles in EV mode, plus you would have pre-heating (although the combining a hot water heater with a heat pump might be difficult). The major change would be the charging hardware, so a bit of boot space might disappear from one side. Add a rear electric motor for 4WD and I am in! 

[johalareewi]

1 hour ago, Mike J. said:

What I would love Toyota to do is to make a 'simple' Yaris Plug-in.

Toyota UK Marketing are very keen to push the 'You don't plug it in' message so they are unlikely to introduce plug in versions of the Yaris, Auris, RAV4, etc.  I get the impression they tolerate the gen2 PIP because Prius is a hybrid car only (as opposed to a hybrid version of a normal car).

Meanwhile in Japan you can get a 4wd Prius.

[Mike J.]

3 hours ago, Mike J. said:

..... plus you would have pre-heating (although the combining a hot water heater with a heat pump might be difficult).

The pre-heating could be simple after all - with car plugged in you could get the Battery to just heat a simple element in the engine coolant path and switch on the existing electric coolant pump and interior fan - warm engine and warm car.

[Cyker]

Ooooh, I wonder if Toyota Japan do an AWD Hybrid Yaris....