Procedure When Stationary

[Ten Ninety]

On 14/03/2018 at 11:13 PM, PeteB said:

What really surprised me was your comment about the delay on stetting off from Hold mode.  On both cars I tried the slightest touch of the throttle released the brake instantly with a faint click sound and the car moved off smartly.  Have you driven any other cars with the system to compare?

I haven't got anything to compare it to. It's not a massive delay, but more than enough to annoy me and certainly enough to have nearly landed me in trouble on the 'be quick or be dead' mini roundabout I have to negotiate twice a day. Even when a rapid take off is not required, it wrecks the usual super-smooth take-up of the 'CVT', so I've had it switched off after my initial experiments in the first week of ownership.

By contrast, the auto handbrake does a good job - in the same way as the system you describe - and presumably reduces the likelihood of transmission damage if shunted in Park. However, I still don't think using P in traffic is the right approach, for the reasons I previously stated. I would also suggest that if you were in a GS I doubt you'd be using P anywhere near as much as you do in your Prius, because the GS has a horribly clunky notched traditional auto selector (that makes you go all the way through N and R to get to P) rather than the lovely frictionless twiddler and button that you are blessed with in a Toyota HSD!

[PeteB]

2 hours ago, Ten Ninety said:

.... However, I still don't think using P in traffic is the right approach, for the reasons I previously stated. I would also suggest that if you were in a GS I doubt you'd be using P anywhere near as much as you do in your Prius, because the GS has a horribly clunky notched traditional auto selector (that makes you go all the way through N and R to get to P) rather than the lovely frictionless twiddler and button that you are blessed with in a Toyota HSD!

We'll have to agree to differ on the subject of using P.  My blip on the brakes is so brief when I pop the car back into D I'd be surprised if anyone was affected by it and I'm usually first away from the lights if I'm first in the queue and have someone alongside me, but then I've been using the technique for some 130,000 miles since 2006 in Gen 2, 3 & 4 Prius.

You're right about being influenced by the selector however.  My Gen 1 Prius had a big lever that looked like it was a column shifter (but in fact emanated from the fascia adjacent to the steering column), and had the format P-R-N-D-B.  I used the parking brake and N a lot more on that, reserving P for longer halts.  Any shifting involving R or P required the button on the end of the lever to be pressed and a dab on the service brake pedal too.

[PeteB]

12 hours ago, PeteB said:

My Gen 1 Prius had a big lever that looked like it was a column shifter...

After I wrote this I was reminded of a report on the Gen 1 Prius by a motoring journalist in the early 2000s where he described the level as "more like something for changing points than gears"!  

[Catlover]

 

When on a longish anticipated stop I now got used to pressing the left foot "handbrake" and slipping the gear selector into N.

Starting off is then simply the case of having my right foot ready on the accelerator pedal, snicking the box into D and releasing the foot pedal, at the same time applying slight pressure on the accelerator.

Actually, glad I got used to this because I was wondering what do I do on a hill start - now I know, its exactly what I am doing except with more co-ordination over right foot accelerator and left foot releasing the foot "hand" brake.

.

 

 

[PeteB]

2 minutes ago, Catlover said:

... I was wondering what do I do on a hill start ...

With a Gen 3 or 4 Prius (and maybe other Toyota models [*]) there is also the option of using the Hill Start Assist (HSA) feature.  People will no doubt have varying ideas as to the desirability of this, but it's there if you want it.

On a Gen 3, briefly pressing the main brake pedal a bit harder invokes HSA (it beeps when activated and I think the Stability Control light flashes), and when the foot is removed the brakes are held on for 2 seconds, which is enough to start accelerating.

On a Gen 4, just releasing the main brake pedal activates HSA if the slope is more than the creep can hold, and again keeps the brakes on for 2 seconds, but there's no beep or dash light.

[*] I've noticed this system on a C-HR Hybrid and Aygo MMT that I've driven too.

[Catlover]

Didnt know that Pete, thanks for the info, perhaps I should read the manual again and then again cause there are probably other snippets I dont know about.

[PeteB]

1 minute ago, Catlover said:

...perhaps I should read the manual again...

Good luck with that.

The Gen 3 manual (main and info/audio/SatNav) ran to 500-600 pages or more IIRC, my Gen 4 is just over 1,000!

I did actually speed read all of it before I went for a test drive, and again just before I took delivery of the car nearly 4 months later, but I worked in IT from the late 1970s so am used to delving into big manuals!  (I'm also a bit of a geek, but I think some friends and relatives use other adjectives )

Even then, I still learn things from others on this and other forums!

[PeteB]

Of course, there is a risk in getting too reliant on all these gizmos, because if you drive a hire or loan car that doesn't have them all you can come unstuck!

I remember buying my first automatic when I was 18, and about a year later had a manual hire car in Spain - not only had to play with gears again, but also cope with left hand drive and being on the other side of the road.

I stalled it quite a few times at first, and then got back into my car two weeks later, kept trying to press a non-existent clutch pedal for a few days (often finding instead the foot operated dip switch - remember them?).

[Harters]

17 hours ago, PeteB said:

On a Gen 4, just releasing the main brake pedal activates HSA if the slope is more than the creep can hold, and again keeps the brakes on for 2 seconds, but there's no beep or dash light.

Same here, the hill hold works great for me.  The only time I use the foot operated parking brake is in my garage to stop the car rolling back from my preferred distance from the door or a steep incline when parking up and leaving the car.

There are a couple of steep inclines that I am often crawling up on my way home from work and I just release the foot brake, the car stays where it is until I press the accelerator and then I can feel the system releasing the brakes as I pull away.  I think it depends on the degree of angle as to what method is used as sometimes I don't feel the pull, so maybe its an electronic hold to a certain point, then a mechanical hold with the brakes for a steeper incline.

[Duffryn]

21 hours ago, PeteB said:

Of course, there is a risk in getting too reliant on all these gizmos, because if you drive a hire or loan car that doesn't have them all you can come unstuck!

I remember buying my first automatic when I was 18, and about a year later had a manual hire car in Spain - not only had to play with gears again, but also cope with left hand drive and being on the other side of the road.

I stalled it quite a few times at first, and then got back into my car two weeks later, kept trying to press a non-existent clutch pedal for a few days (often finding instead the foot operated dip switch - remember them?).

You should witness some of my re-starts in a manual  box Yaris loan car when the Prius is in for service!  At least it keeps the missus amused I suppose.

[PeteB]

2 minutes ago, Duffryn said:

You should witness some of my re-starts in a manual  box Yaris loan car when the Prius is in for service!  At least it keeps the missus amused I suppose.

At least I've got my service manager trained to always loan me a hybrid, except when I fancy a change like the Aygo MMT I asked for last time.  Even got a PiP once!

[Dancing Badger]

I'm bemused why hardly anybody here seems to consider using the parking brake for traffic halts.  In a previous life as a driving instructor it's what I used to teach (in manual cars), it's what my colleagues taught in conventional automatics, and it's what I was taught when I learnt to drive HGV. And it was never a requirement to go into neutral, leaving in gear / drive is acceptable, and I can't see what there is about a hybrid which demands a different approach. There was never a rule about whether to stay in gear or go into neutral. For advanced driving tests it's generally recommended to so into neutral but that only applies to manual transmissions where there's a risk of your foot slipping off the clutch. A friend who has recently qualified as an instructor confirms that this approach has not changed.

I held my Gen 3 Prius at traffic halts using the parking brake and remaining in drive for 3 years and I've continued to do so in my Auris for the past 2 years. It avoids any issues with brake lights remaining on or with hill starts - my Auris doesn't have the hill start assist and it doesn't need it. The Prius had it and I only ever used it to have a go and prove that it worked.  If I have a prolonged stop - say in a motorway traffic jam - then I'll use P, but otherwise I routinely use the parking brake when halted in traffic. I only ever use N to periodically give the brake discs a wipe.

Certainly the car does not shut off power with the parking brake applied as it does with the foot brake but the amount of energy expended must surely be minimal and I'm sure the system is robust enough that it doesn't do any harm to the car. It doesn't pull strongly against the brakes, the creep is really quite gentle. And unlike using P,  you don't need to briefly apply the foot brake to release the parking brake.  Toyota have worked hard to make their hybrids behave like "normal" cars and it's counter-intuitive that you should have to adopt different techniques for something as routine as waiting at a red light. 

[Catlover]

What I saying next applies to non hybrid cars.   If I see a car stationary at traffic lights or stuck in a queue for a longish time and the brake lights are on, not only do they dazzle, more so in wet weather, but also I assume the driver is holding the car in gear and potentially riding the clutch - which is doing the clutch/mechanics no good at all. Often say to myself "I wouldnt like to buy that as a used car - more an abused car. Of course thats not always the case but thats what I think.

[PeteB]

This is just my view, not saying anyone else is wrong; the "correct" bit in this thread's title is debatable.

My personal measure for everything I do when driving, mainly uses these criteria in order of importance to me:

1. saftey
2. legality
3. courtesy to other road users
4. sympathy to the mechanicals and electronics of the vehicle.

If a method works, is not unsafe, illegal or inconsiderate, in my view it's not "wrong".

Less than 30% of the ¾ million miles I've driven since passing my test in 1973 has been in manual cars, and in the others (auto/Hybrid/CVT or MultiMode) it's always felt wrong to me to feel the transmission pulling against the parking brake, even though I fully agree the effect is slight and there appears to be no physical harm in doing so.

Incidentally, I take a RoSPA Advanced test every three years and don't change my technique for these, and have received no comment about it in any of the five tests I've had.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Topic title edited.

[Joseph D]

11 hours ago, Dancing Badger said:

I held my Gen 3 Prius at traffic halts using the parking brake and remaining in drive   ...   Certainly the car does not shut off power with the parking brake applied as it does with the foot brake but the amount of energy expended must surely be minimal and I'm sure the system is robust enough that it doesn't do any harm to the car. It doesn't pull strongly against the brakes, the creep is really quite gentle.

I don't see why you cannot do the same in an automatic as the procedure that is seen as best practice for a manual. Even in a regular automatic I will put on the handbrake and shift into neutral for a stop longer than a brief stop.

As a mechanical engineer in a passed life, I just find it grating, wrong even, to leave any car in D while being held on the parking brake. I don't disagree with anything else you have said in regards to whether it does damage, robustness, etc. Yes, one of the reasons I do what I do in the Prius is to save energy. It does seem incongruous to have an energy efficient car, and then wantonly waste energy. Whether it wastes a little or a lot, is not the point to me. Every little counts. As I get a current (last 12 months) average of 4.4 L/100 km (64 MPG UK), I must be doing something right. But each to their own. (My sig shows my lifetime stats of 4.6 L/100 km (61 MPG UK))

As far as the workflow of leaving it in D vs D to N back to D, I shift it back into D at same time, and in co-ordination with, my foot releasing the park brake, and I get off the mark without any delay, so it does not take any longer than if left in D.

My further £0.05 worth. (allowance for inflation.  LOL)

[Cyker]

Well this is why this argument comes up now and then - Unlike with manuals and other automatics, there is no optimal way in a HSD :(
With manuals and automatics with a real neutral, there is exactly one Correct procedure with no downsides:

Handbrake + Neutral.


With the HSD, you basically have 4 options and all have downsides:
1) Stay in D and hold down the foot brake:
Pros: Saves energy, Is what 99% of other drivers do anyway, regardless of auto or manual
Cons: Blinds people behind you in low-light/night, unsafe in rear collisions as your foot will likely come off the pedal, my old driving instructor will break your legs

2) Stay in D, put on hand/parking brake:
Pros: Doesn't blind people behind you,
Cons: Car is constantly straining against the rear drums - Wastes energy, may suddenly creep forward if the rear drums are worn, may damage the motors over time as electric motors draw a lot of amps when static and powered, which causes the windings to heat up more than normal

3) Shift into N, put on hand/parking brake:
Pros: Doesn't blind people behind you, motors are not straining against the brake
Cons: Wastes energy; Is one of the few ways you can discharge the traction Battery if stationary for a long time as ICE will NOT* charge the traction Battery when in N (*Mixed views on whether this applies on newer HSDs!)

4) Shift into P, put on hand/parking brake:
Pros: Doesn't blind people behind you, motors are not straining against the brake, Battery can still be charged by ICE
Cons: Slight risk the pawl that locks the drive train in P can be damaged in a rear-end collision, requires shifting through R on HSDs like the Yaris Hybrid which flashes your reverse light at drivers behind.

3 and 4 are probably the least detrimental, but still carry their own risks.

[Joseph D]

6 hours ago, Cyker said:

3) Shift into N, put on hand/parking brake:
...
Cons: Wastes energy;

Want to explain this? How exactly does this configuration waste energy?

6 hours ago, Cyker said:

Is one of the few ways you can discharge the traction battery if stationary for a long time as ICE will NOT* charge the traction battery when in N

And the key point here is "a long time". My HV Battery can sit in N for well over 20 min if reasonably full until it get to the point of needing to charge. Also an important factor is being present in the car while it is in N, never use N unattended. I also see a difference between parking up, as in a parking area, parking building or at the side of a road, as opposed to stop for an extended time in a traffic jam or light with a long cycle. In all my distance of driving, I have had the warning message twice. Both times, it just required pressing the P button. When you consider this, it is a con, but not a significant one.

[PeteB]

One other thing about "N", is that if the petrol engine happens to be running when you select it (maybe because it's warming up, heating the cabin or charging the HV battery), it will continue running indefinitely, wasting fuel and wasting the electricity being generated.

There is a small cost too, of sitting in N while the engine is not running, as the car's ancillaries are consuming power that will ultimately need to be replaced either by running the engine or working it harder while driving.

[Joseph D]

14 minutes ago, PeteB said:

One other thing about "N", is that if the petrol engine happens to be running when you select it ..., it will continue running indefinitely,   ...

This true. Make sure to wait for the ICE to shutdown before selecting N.

14 minutes ago, PeteB said:

...   while the engine is not running, as the car's ancillaries are consuming power that will ultimately need to be replaced either by running the engine or working it harder while driving.

This is the case regardless of whether P, N or D was selected. It is a byproduct of sitting still.

[PeteB]

1 hour ago, PeteB said:

...There is a small cost too, of sitting in N while the engine is not running, as the car's ancillaries are consuming power...

 

58 minutes ago, Joseph D said:

This is the case regardless of whether P, N or D was selected. It is a byproduct of sitting still.

Hmm... guess I should wake up more before putting fingers on keys!  Merely trying to say it didn't give anything for nothing.

[kithmo]

13 hours ago, Cyker said:

there is exactly one Correct procedure with no downsides:

Handbrake + Neutral.
 

Not being belligerent here or anything, but is this your opinion or is it a fact taken from somewhere like a manual etc.

[Ten Ninety]

 

22 hours ago, Cyker said:

With the HSD, you basically have 4 options and all have downsides:
1) Stay in D and hold down the foot brake:
Pros: Saves energy, Is what 99% of other drivers do anyway, regardless of auto or manual
Cons: Blinds people behind you in low-light/night, unsafe in rear collisions as your foot will likely come off the pedal, my old driving instructor will break your legs

 

Brake lights don't blind anyone, unless that individual is so visually-impaired they shouldn't be driving at night in the first place. The glare may be mildly uncomfortable to look at, and it is perfectly reasonably for you to wish to minimise others' discomfort, but let's not make out that it's some kind of an unforgiveable sin to not be overly bothered about this. I would respectfully suggest your old driving instructor could perhaps have laid off with the threats of GBH and instead promoted the zen-like art of finding something other than the brake lights of the car in front to stare at whilst in traffic. It's definitely better for the blood pressure!

Regarding safety, I prefer prevention to mitigating impact. So whilst coming off the brake in a collision is certainly a valid downside to keeping your foot on the pedal, it's worth bearing in mind that you are far less likely to be hit in the first place if your brake lights are actually illuminated. It's also far quicker to take evasive action if you see someone approaching rapidly in the mirror than it is if you have to release the handbrake, get into gear or shift out of park. Pete has already described his approach of waiting until a car appears behind before taking his foot off the brake, which seems like a sensible approach to both these issues. However, at that point, you have an entire car's worth of shock absorption behind you, which means far less need to be concerned about a serious impact anyway.

I'm not posting the above in any attempt to change anyone's views - just to explain why I adopt the foot-on-brake approach. None of us are going to change what we've done for years just because of what some other random dude on the internet says, but it's always interesting to get an insight into the thinking behind others' driving behaviour.

This thread also reminds me of why I still come back to this forum to post now and again: because people on here can have an argument without descending into the aggression or name-calling that characterises some other motoring websites!

[Catlover]

39 minutes ago, Ten Ninety said:

 

Brake lights don't blind anyone, unless that individual is so visually-impaired they shouldn't be driving at night in the first place. .

This thread also reminds me of why I still come back to this forum to post now and again: because people on here can have an argument without descending into the aggression or name-calling that characterises some other motoring websites!

Well you almost there with the name calling.

I have my eyes checked every 2 years and have new lenses if required BUT I still feel "blinded" by the car in front brake lights being on, especially in wet weather.  Of course I can look elsewhere and often do, but still have the necessity to look ahead from time to time to see if traffic is moving.

I know I was the original poster, but I think every scenario has now been covered. I know what my practice is going to be in the future, so thanks to all for their experiences. 

[Dancing Badger]

I've just had to pick She Who Must Be Obeyed up from the station, and had been reading this thread just before I left. I had a 12 mile round trip into central Manchester and back on main roads which entailed negotiating a good number of red lights and was interested to observe how other motorists behaved. It was moderately busy, especially round the inner ring road, and I saw a wide variety of cars and light vans - no lorries or buses. Virtually every other driver kept his/her foot on the brake at red lights and each traffic halt was a sea of brake lights. I spotted only two exceptions, a private hire minicab and a small Kia with a young woman driving. I spotted two hybrids on the trip, both minicabs, an Auris HSD and a Gen 3 Prius - they both held their cars on the footbrake. So it seems from my entirely unscientific experiment that those of us here who use either Park or the parking brake are very much in the minority and sadly those who find brake lights dazzling are likely to continue to suffer. I'll be watching again on my commute tomorrow, my new driving game is spot the handbrake user!