D4D Which Engine? Which Year?

[justybees]

Hi All,

I'm looking to buy an Avensis D4D. My budget is £3000 max. I live in a rural location do journeys of a minimum of 4 miles (the nearest shop) and a daily commute of 20 miles (one way) to work, reaching speeds of 50-60 mph along A and B roads.

I really fancied the T18 for its spec and power, but then was put off by some other thread on here, and then got even more confused with timing belts vs chains, steel blocks vs aluminium. I think this other topic was focusing mainly on using one as a taxi around town, which is almost the opposite of how I use my cars. Cruise control is very attractive also, as my friends and family are spread all over the country.

If anyone could clarify some pro's and con's for me regarding the 2.2 vs 2.0, belt vs chain etc, I would really appreciate it. My previous cars have both been 1990's  VW Passat diesels and have been epic. I'm trying to find that kind of reliability and economy again in my next car. Any suggestions welcome. 

Many thanks.

 

[Duggerz]

I'd be interested to know why you're not buying another Passat.

A small percentage of the AD engines suffered head gasket failures due to carbon buildup, all varieties were affected but anecdotal evidence suggests the larger engines more so, probably because of the increased output. However all manufacturers have problems from time to time, as anyone with a BXE engined VW will tell you if they were unfortunate enough to see a connecting rod through the front of the block. This was due to a cost cutting measure where VW decreased the size of the crank journals in their cheaper derivatives.
If you really don't need the power and lack of economy that comes with a 2.2, either of the 2.0 engines are very sturdy and will outlast your will to drive them, though the earlier 1CD engine seems to have a subjectively better reputation, and may be suitable if you're ok with cam belts.

[justybees]

Hi Duggerz,

1996 was the last B4 passat made and now the B3 and B4 diesel passats are almost impossible to find in any kind of worthwhile condition. Mine is a perfect example of the kind of condition that they are occasionally sold in. 22 years old, 200000 miles, rust coming through, heaps of stuff to replace. If a good condition diesel estate passat with lowish milage came up for sale, I'd jump straight on it, even though it wouldnt really be as suitable for me now as a more modern diesel with cruise control and 6 speeds etc. I just love em. 

So are the AD engines the ones with belts or chains, steel or ali? I'm fine with 2.0l and I'm fine with belts... If the 1CD engine is less likely to suffer from a head gasket faliure and it can be found in an estate model with cruise control, then £300 every 60/70.000 miles for the pump and belt to be changed is normal for a modern diesel. What years were the best engines made?

And do you know if anyone has does a flywheel conversion when the clutch gives up? I don't like the sound of these duelmass flywheels. 

cheers!

[Duggerz]

The AD engines are chain driven, and have slightly higher power than the CD engines which are belt. The 2.0 AD was available in the Avensis from late 2006 and can be distinguished from the earlier one by trafficators on the wing mirrors and lack of a d4d Badge on the wings. I have a 2006 56 2.0 AD estate that has 225,000 miles behind it and it's never needed anything major, not a clutch, water pump, head gasket, alternator, etc. Only wheel bearings and wear and year stuff. According to bulletins, the issue with the AD engines was cured in all those manufactured after Feb 2009, but I think a vehicle in that year would be out of the price range unless it had intergalactic mileage. The earlier ones are available with cruise, but I don't know exactly which. T4 and T Spirit definitely, but maybe some T3 variants too.

[Duggerz]

The AD cars come with 6 speed whereas CD has 5. Solid flywheel conversions are available but the dmf doesn't seem to be a problem anyway in most cases.

[Husbandofstinky]

Personally I would stick with a PD130 engine. You could get a mint Highline B5.5 for that sort of money.

The Avensis is not a bad motor but the engine is very unrefined, almost agricultural. However It is also very reliable (but then so is the PD).

I have the old CD engined Avensis and it has been fine. It did require a new clutch and DMF last year and the whole lot came to £700 or so for an LUK kit fitted via a garage (cash job). There is no way I would have done an SMF conversion based on cost alone. The DMF is there for a reason and an SMF would make an unrefined engine even worse.

Out of preference I would choose the AD engine over the CD due to the 6 speed, slightly increased power and possibly the cam chain (if you are that way inclined). However, the obvious mileage and condition would be the overriding factor personally if one came up.

The 2.2 engine seems to be more prone to HG failures than the 2.0 plus the economy on the larger lump seems to attract many gripes with poor mpg.

 

[justybees]

Hi Duggerz

Sounds like you found yourself a little gem there. It seems everyone agrees about the 2.2l, which is a shame, as there seems to be a heap of low miliage 2.2l corolla versos available. Fare more than the 2.0l and more than any Avensis. I'm not in a rush yet, so hopefully something will come along.

Husbandofstinky,

Is PD 130 refering to the HP? B5.5?? Highline? Are there all engine variations? 

6 gears is very appealing and chain drive a bonus, but if that means higher risk of HG faliure, then I'll opt for a belt and 5 speed. 

So to summarise... If I'm understanding things properly.The Lower power, 5 speed, belt driven D4D engine from around 2005/6 has the best reputation for reliability and compared to the 2.2, better MPG???

[Heidfirst]

3 hours ago, justybees said:

So to summarise... If I'm understanding things properly.The Lower power, 5 speed, belt driven D4D engine from around 2005/6 has the best reputation for reliability and compared to the 2.2, better MPG???

Yes. Of course the 2.2 goes better (the 150bhp version should return ~42mpg in the real world & has no DPF compared to the 177bhp version)...,

[Duggerz]

Personally I would stick with a PD130 engine. You could get a mint Highline B5.5 for that sort of money.
The Avensis is not a bad motor but the engine is very unrefined, almost agricultural. However It is also very reliable (but then so is the PD).
I have the old CD engined Avensis and it has been fine. It did require a new clutch and DMF last year and the whole lot came to £700 or so for an LUK kit fitted via a garage (cash job). There is no way I would have done an SMF conversion based on cost alone. The DMF is there for a reason and an SMF would make an unrefined engine even worse.
Out of preference I would choose the AD engine over the CD due to the 6 speed, slightly increased power and possibly the cam chain (if you are that way inclined). However, the obvious mileage and condition would be the overriding factor personally if one came up.
The 2.2 engine seems to be more prone to HG failures than the 2.0 plus the economy on the larger lump seems to attract many gripes with poor mpg.
 

Opinion seems to be divided on PD or unit injector engines. My mechanic who loves all things VW Audi despises them, days that they give all kinds of problems, including leaking into the head. PD is an overly complicated method compared to common rail in terms of mechanical stuff to go wrong. I'd buy a VAG car but it would have to be common rail. Also the BXE debacle engines are all PD I think as these are the cheaper end of their range. If you think the Avensis head gasket issue is bad, Google BXE engine, makes interesting reading.
The Avensis DMF doesn't damp that much which is why there is slight vibration at idle. It's also why they can last 200k plus miles as opposed to pretty much any other manufacturer where they seem to fail between 70 and 100k. Subjectively I think their flywheels are also lighter which is why the engine revs respond very quickly from idle compared to the others I tried when looking for a car in 2010. The others felt like they were trying to turn over the planet in comparison. Personally I don't mind the way it idles, and I kept the DMF money in my pocket that I would have spent on a different car.

[Husbandofstinky]

15 hours ago, justybees said:

Is PD 130 refering to the HP? B5.5?? Highline? Are there all engine variations? 

The PD130 is the hp, As pointed out by Duggerz the later lower powered BXE 1.9PD's are not a patch on the AWX engines.

I have had a PD150 for fourteen years now (since new) and to me it has been the best car I have ever had by a country mile. Great power (especially as its mapped - 14 years now and no problems) plus mpg is great and noticeably better than the CD engined Avensis I have. Nothing has gone wrong with it bar the window regulator other than consumables. (45mpg running around town in the winter and 47mpg in the summer). The Avenisis is much less (40mpg in the summer and 37mpg in the winter). It is however a heavier car than the Leon. For the record I do think the Avensis mpg is on the low side but the garage mechanic basically said it was an old school tractor engine in a heavy lump of a motor. In short he says it drives and delivers as its expected. For the record, forget the trip in the Avensis - wildly overstated and in accurate. You need to do the old school fill right up and first click calculations for the mpg. Don't believe a word of it.

I also have a mapped CR170 Superb (from new) and it is coming up to five years old now. No problems with it as of yet and I hope it proves to be as successful long term as the Leon.

I know plenty of mechanics (many of which are clients) and they all tell me to keep the Leon going as it is a better motor than the much younger Superb. The general consensus is that the PD130 is a stronger motor (less stressed) than the PD150. Fundamentally it is the same lump but with a bigger turbo. The massive problem nowadays is finding a 12+ year old diesel with plenty of life left in it. They are about but they are not exactly falling off the forecourts. 

As far as the DMF debate is concerned, I will stick with them as although the SMF is notably cheaper, they have been installed by the manufacturer for a reason - comfort. This has been debated to death on Seat cupra net in the past and for most it is purely down to cost and saving a couple of quid. Using an SMF may save you £150 on a best part of a grand job (depending on where you take it). 

Whatever you do I hope you get it sorted but with £3k you should get a very good Avensis/Passat with low mileage. The old Mk1 Superb's will have all the bell's and whistle's on top of the Passat. It is basically the same motor but stretched. The old A6 with a PD130 is also the same motor too so you can't go wrong there bar parts prices. All of these motors are taxi wagon's for a reason as they just last.

Happy researching/searching  

 

[Husbandofstinky]

Finally...

Talk to general mechanics who repair all sorts. They are a mine of information, especially those that have been on the spanners for 20 years, they see what comes through the doors and fix them. I don't think any of them would knock either the aforementioned VAG (AWX) or Toyota (AD/CD) lumps.

Being used to both VAG and Toyota, I feel you would get on with the Avensis so is most definitely a possibility. However, it is your motor and you'll be the one that has to live with it day in day out. No matter what everyone else says, if it doesn't feel right (what ever that is) then walk away.

[justybees]

Oh crikey, how do know which Passats have the good AWX engines and which have troublesome units?? I never concidered a post 96 Passat before, as I thought they where all money pits.

 

[Husbandofstinky]

Just stick with the 130PD units. They are the best of all worlds - power, economy and pretty much bullet proof.

If on autotrader then it will tell you on the economy and performance section.

The final check to confirm everything will be on the sticker in the boot around the spare wheel well. The engine code will be on that.

Don't forget the obvious Superb Mk1 plus Audi A4/6 as alternatives 

 

[justybees]

is the 100pd engine any good in the golf?

 

[Husbandofstinky]

Depending on the year, it could be a BXE engine (May 2007+). Obviously, avoid that engine if you can help it.

Before that it will be either a BKC or BLS. Both are fine.

Don't quote me on it but I think the BLS (2006 plus) had a DPF fitted. I would avoid that purely on that ground. Do the old finger in the exhaust test to double check.

 

[justybees]

Ok  

thanks everyone for your help.

lets see what i end up with...