2003 VVTI - surely not the head gasket?

[altreus]

Hi Celica fans

I got a 2003 Celica because it looked nice (well I got it because it drove nicely too) and now my mechanics are saying I've probably got a bust HG. I Googled around for how much that would be to replace and I found this old thread: 

 

One person said if the oil cap and dipstick aren't frothy it's not likely to be the HG. But the difference between my symptoms and theirs is that I'm losing oil way faster than I'm losing coolant. Otherwise it's the same - sudden overheating while driving. When it starts overheating, we pull over and fill up the oil (after letting it cool of course) and it's happy again.

I've got it sat on the street for now so I'm going to know soon if the oil is going anywhere without permission, but it seems like it only happens when running.

Should I be looking to replace the head gasket or is it something more benign like the radiator? I'm going to make a DIY project out of this car because in the worst case I can strip it for parts for a mate who has one, and scrap the rest. Best case I fix it.

Advice welcome, cheers

[alan333]

12 hours ago, altreus said:

my mechanics are saying I've probably got a bust HG. 

One person said if the oil cap and dipstick aren't frothy it's not likely to be the HG. But the difference between my symptoms and theirs is that I'm losing oil way faster than I'm losing coolant. Otherwise it's the same - sudden overheating while driving. When it starts overheating, we pull over and fill up the oil (after letting it cool of course) and it's happy again.

Should I be looking to replace the head gasket or is it something more benign like the radiator?

What has your mechnic based his diagnosis on?

The 1.8vvti engine (in a similarly aged Avensis, probably also the Celica) can develop a fault where the underside of the pistons gunk up causing high oil consumption.

When overheating you fill up the oil??

Need more info.

[altreus]

I can ask, but I keep taking it in for various issues and they've decided it's the HG after fixing other stuff. They've replaced the water pump and the rocker gasket (which was actually bust). They also replaced the thermostat in case it was simply wrong about being too hot. They don't have the equipment to actually test the head gasket, and they've been told by head office they're not to do any head gasket work anyway so I'm basically stuck shopping around or doing it myself.

More info ... What can I give you? About 2 months ago I was in London and it was overheating, so we pulled over, left it to cool down, and then checked the oil, which was almost completely empty. The coolant levels were OK but I topped it up anyway. Filled up the oil and no more overheating.

And then about 2 weeks ago the same thing happened - overheating, and out of oil. Coolant levels fine. Put oil in, stops overheating. We haven't driven it since except to and from the garage, which is barely 200 yards.

The only other symptom is the one we've not got to the bottom of yet, which is that the heating doesn't work. Whenever it comes back from the mechanic it works fine, then it slowly increases how long it takes it to actually warm up after turning it on, until eventually it only heats up if you're doing 80mph in 6th. I don't know what they do there but something they do causes it to start working again, but it deteriorates fast.

I'd like to be a bit more self-reliant when it comes to fixing cars anyway so I think I'm going to go ahead with trying to fix it myself - I just would rather narrow the options down where poss.

[RUToyota]

 

HG failure is rare on a Celica....and by 2003 oil burning issues were far less prevalent (I assume you have the 140 model.?) BUT..if the car has not had a good history of frequent oil/filter changes then it's not impossible that you are suffering from the increased oil burning problems that beset the earlier 140 bhp models. (up to 2002 IIRC)

There's not much you can do I'm afraid if that's the case....damage is done.

The VVTi engine needs regular oil changes (every 6/7k miles I'd suggest)

The whole situation as you have described it seems rather strange to me...and the coolant/overheating and oil issues are surely separate.

Failed radiators on a Celica are NOT uncommon....and they need to be installed and bled correctly (see notice on the underside of the bonnet)

What mileage has it done.?

[alan333]

If it's running extremely low on oil it could be near the point of seizure, which would make the engine overheat.

[JayG]

Definitely sounds like you have at least two separate issues happening by the sounds of things. The heater and the oil issue are very unlikely to be related.

The heater barely working could just be due to trapped air in the system. Did your heater work properly before you had the water pump replaced? 

The oil issue, on the other hand, is there any sign of blue smoke out of the exhaust or can you smell burnt oil through the exhaust?
If so, this confirms that oil is getting into the combustion chambers and therefore would be a head gasket issue. Even if there isn't any sign at the exhaust end, this doesn't rule out it being a head gasket issue. Frustratingly, "head gasket" is a very generic term used to cover a multitude of possible issues.  But if blue smoke is evident then it strongly confirms a head gasket issue. 

You didn't mention what the cars service history is like or millage? Celica's are on the fussier side for oil changes. Despite the 03+ engine revision to address the common oil burning issue, as others above me have said. They are not immune, just less prone. Hence the importance of the frequent oil changes. Ideally around every 5k.

If service history is lacking,  the past recorded millages on the current MOT certificate can act as a good indicator. If the car has been doing 10K or more a year that would be a red flag to me that oil changes likely haven't been carried out frequently enough as it's likely that the car hasn't been serviced more than once a year unless there is explicitly the service history to prove otherwise.

[altreus]

Hi. Sorry, busy week hit me (and it's still going). Mileage is on 121k at the moment. Not sure if I have the 140 model - what indicates this?

Edit - oh, a new reply showed up when I hit post. I've not examined its service history yet and I won't be able to dig that out for a few days. Being colour blind I couldn't tell you if the smoke is blue or just but I'll get someone to make that judgement for me and let you know.

I'll reply more thoroughly when I'm back home and can a) relax and b) see the car. Thanks everyone so far for chipping in :)

Edited April 6, 2018 by altreus

[RUToyota]

 

You refer to it as a VVTi...that denotes it's a 140 bhp model...the 190 bhp model is VVTLi...it has a "lift" facility that kicks in at a tad over 6k rpm.

It was only the 140 model that was affected by oil burning...NOT the 190..so that again suggests you have the 140.

Sadly it doesn't bode well from what you have said...and I genuinely hope I'm wrong.!

Doing good research/homework on any car you are thinking of buying is so important...particularly in respect of the model's quirks and the car's history.

I disagree with jay's comments however...blue smoke doesn't suggest a head gasket issue...only an oil burning one.

[altreus]

I'm thinking of taking it apart anyway as a learning exercise. If I can fix it then that's grand but if not I was going to scrap it anyway (because I can't fix it!) so I might as well have fun first. Based on this thread I'm going to assume it's not the HG but the oil is leaving the car some other way.

It's been suggested that I have an oil leak due to engine heat, since leaving it sat doesn't appear to have caused a problem. I'll test that too.

To answer previous questions:- 

* The smoke is white. I'd assume the garage had the nouse to check the emissions (I'll ask them what the results were and get them to do it if they haven't).

* The garage tried to fix the heating with all the obvious things, including air traps, and even replaced the water pump to no avail. I don't think that's related to the overheating though. Maybe I'll try to fix that first!

As much as I like this car, I'm sure others exist that have been better maintained, so I'm not too upset about maybe scrapping it. I'm just bothered that I spent 400 quid on new tyres! I'm sure someone will take them though - or I could keep them for my replacement ;)

[altreus]

I forgot about the coolant. It's losing both, although at different rates. It seems random too, because sometimes the oil is empty and the coolant is fine, and sometimes vice-versa. Both of these together (apparently) suggest head gasket, but I suppose there are ways they could each leak out independently of one another...

[JayG]

It's not sounding good to be honest. 
If the rest of the car is in great shape it could a good opportunity for a rebuild or engine swap.

[RUToyota]

As Jay has said...it doesn't sound good I'm afraid.

The WHITE smoke suggests head gasket failure...assuming it isn't simply the usual white "smoke" that you get on first start up and initial drive.

Unless the rest of the car warrants it, I'd be careful just how much dosh you throw at it tbh..

[altreus]

Well as I say I'm probably going to try to fix it myself, whatever it is. Time to learn something!

I'll go with the head gasket for now because that is something we think we can manage. See where we get to.

I'll look at the radiator while I'm there.

Worst case I've learned something!

Thanks everyone :)